+-

Elder Scrolls


Author Topic: Correlates of Skill  (Read 196 times)

FaceOfMelinda

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
    • View Profile
Correlates of Skill
« on: July 29, 2014, 11:20:32 pm »
Which map (or mode) do you think correlates most strongly with skill?

CTF / BD / ROTS etc

It seems to me that BD is by far the biggest correlate of skill in Revo.

In CTF I can’t beat stay_cool and dark_exodus (I really tried) whereas in BD I COMPLETELY dominate almost anyone despite not playing it actively. T

his of course depends on the mode in BD – 2v2 and 6v6 are modes where skill is less rewarded. But in 4v2 BD – where skill REALLY shines – people just get DESTROYED by me.

Anyone agree/disagree? Is 4sheep vs 2wolves in BD the best correlate of skill in Revo and perhaps the best metric of skill we have overall?

I really think scores in 4v2 BD is the best way to objectively and quantitatively measure skill in the game. Or at least categorize tiers. 

Share on Facebook Share on Twitter


Nmcdo

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 383
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2014, 06:00:26 pm »
ROTS - Out of the question.

CTF - I've played this game possible more than any other (from what I know). CTF HIGHLY requires a strong knowledge of its items and farms / tricks in order to play at a high degree, and EVEN THEN it can be difficult because of the many different things your opponent could do. Thus a lot of whether the wolf kills the sheep or the sheep gets past the wolf is based on there reaction to these moments.
Thus the game requires you to have A STRONG reaction time AND KNOWLEDGE to succeed. Atleast against a wolf who knows what hes doing.
Many people see it as luck but there is also a lot of skill involved if played properly.

Bulldog - Without having these items movements - the game mainly correlates to control of the map and how well you can control your wolf. If the wolf is very good the sheep will have trouble getting by. Therefor as sheep it more requires you to know where the wolf is going to block and attack, and using these moments to break through your current mass and continuing down the map however it may be. As there is usually less space to work with in BD sheeping isn't as runtag based as it is mass based. 4 V 2 (katma?) would be more of how good a sheep is at tricking and movement building then how good a wolf is at guarding and preventing with CONTROL of mirror and main wolf - enough said.

Which has more skill? Depends on how you look at it. (Nothing against either even though both can be boring at times).
Knowledge - CTF
Micro control - Bulldog for wolf : CTF for sheep.
Reaction time - CTF.
Movement: Bulldog (importance).
Tricking (of either wolf tricking sheep for kill or sheep to get by) - CTF.
There may be some things I've missed but this should shine some light on the matter, I do not claim all this to be perfectly thought out so it may have flaws.
Agree / Disagree with what I've said?
Respect the Runtag.

drewisfat

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 06:29:42 am »
/agree

CTF - I've only played this a couple times, but the fact that people who aren't very good at all in ST (Wrda?) are considered top players makes me think that CTF isn't really much of ST game at all.  I don't have enough experience to really judge the game for its own merits, but I all the spells/items detract from the core element of ST, this is why skill in the game seems to have no correlation (maybe even a negative correlation?) to skill in revo.  Instead it's based on who mastered the new things, which have almost completely eroded classic ST dynamics.

I think the most glaring problem with CTF is that massing (aka trying) is discouraged, and leads to a more boring/broken game.  Any game where trying too hard is ruinous and so you have to start imposing arbitrary limits = BIG sign that you have a real problem.

BD on the other hand seems more of a condensed form of the skill/intelligence in ST revo.  There is less to it, but this doesn't mean there's less skill / less to master, because instead there are fewer boring parts and more constant wolf/sheep interactions.  You're always near a wolf pressuring them -- or else you're on a break away to scoring.  Revo you can go several minutes without seeing a wolf sometimes.

BD is a much more vigorous testing of positioning and awareness, and intelligent players quickly rise to the top.  It's amazing how some people may be very good at revo, survival by themselves, but when placed in an atmosphere where they have to account for the positions of all their teammates and all the wolves they suddenly look extremely mediocre.  (CMK comes to mind here). 

BD also rewards technical micro skill as well, but in a much more purposeful way.  Small and dynamic jukes are the key to manipulating the wolves and gaining ground or making a breakaway.  Mediocre players tend to either do predictable set up trips (where they're basically hoping the wolf won't click on them after a jump), and repeat their same 2-3 go-to tricks every time.  Most damaging is that even when they pull off these tricks they're rarely good ideas in the present situation, and they end up getting past a wolf only to find themselves exposed and image blocked. 

In revo there are essentially four situations where you show off micro skill, and 3/4 of those situations = are "playing to have fun" and not "playing to win".  A game where those two have a huge disconnect is a poorly designed game.

1. Zak Syndrome - where you are bored, in a safe position and you decide to try to mess with the wolf in the middle of a mass for very small gain.  80% of the time you look good, but 20% of the time you die for no reason.
2. Switch tricks - or when you put on a RT show in the wide open arena.  The problem here is usually you're not trying to get back to your ally's farms, and you're not trying to maximize how long you survive (as this would involve just running to a corner and tanking).  Instead you're playing for fun and to show off -- which is all well and good, but there's a disconnect where this doesn't match "winning" in the game.
3. Unnecessary Risk - Where you are definitely under pressure and starting to be isolated, but you decide to make a move on your own 1v1 against a wolf.
4. Necessary Risk - Same as #3, the difference being the situation.  Sometimes it's wiser to wait for allies or to bend the wolves out of position.  It's only smart "game-wise" to make a move on your own when there is no reason to think stalling would benefit you.

In BD most of the time you can aggressively micro against wolves, and have it be the smart choice at the same time.  In revo the vast majority of the time, the right play is the boring one. 
The result is that people who look good aren't necessarily the most skilled players, but the ones who show off the most.

HaWkys

  • Masser Deluxe
  • *******
  • Posts: 740
  • NMCDO = biggest clown
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 12:32:39 pm »
rofl at "zak syndrome" funny **** xD

XXXandBEER

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2014, 02:52:48 pm »
2 complaints with BD
First its 100% based off of the wolves reactions if the wolves play perfect the sheep wont win.
Second there is no reason to try as wolf as you're just prolonging how much longer till you get sheep.


I would love to see a BD vampish mode. Where it starts lets say 6v2. First round whoever dies is wolf next round as well. So lets say 1 person dies rest make it. Those people get rewarded for making it and wolves get punished for not killing sheep and go again. This time its 5v3 round 2 and so on till you have 1 winning sheep. This both gives incentive to wolf and justifies a clear winning sheep. Somebody make this gamemode *cough* chakra plssss

As for CTF its fun but has as much correlation to revo as my post does to this thread.

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #5 on: July 31, 2014, 05:17:40 pm »
fallacy = starting with the assumption that certain people are "gifted"(skilled, intelligent, whatever) while others are "ungifted", and looking at what gameplay best reflects this assumpion.

seems impossible to say anything about skill correlation between games/gamemodes without some nasty assumptions. or unless you simplify "skill" to include basic **** only, like reflexes/speed/accuracy.



assuming that borja is the king of runtag, drew is the king of massing, shoop is the king of wolfing = the actuall ranking of the 3 players (who wins the most) will depend on gamemode. what basis is there for saying that any of the gamemodes correlates more with skill than the others, without assuming the ranking of the 3 players to begin with? e.g. "shoop is the most gifted player, borja is the least gifted player".
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


drewisfat

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 107
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 08:47:48 am »
That's exactly the problem amir with revo.  "Best at revo" depends on what you find impressive.  Ideally I would assume something like best player to have in a 5v5 competitive game, but we've had so few of those it seems like a weird standard.

Bulldog you don't have this problem, there's a closer tie between what people perceive as skillful and direct success in the game.

Which tier people are in becomes extremely evident within an hour.  There are three tier 1 people (you know who they are, or at least they do ^^) And there's a handful of people in the second tier, who understand the game but aren't quite as skilled.  Then there's a giant drop off for tier 3 with people who don't understand the basic concept of the game.

@sidey, I think 3v2 is better than 4v2.  Ultimately it depends on which map,  how much gold and the timer, but I think 3v2 yields better results over more settings. What's interesting though is that there's a steep drop off in 2v2 from 3v2.  Once the sheep don't outnumber the wolves positioning / tactical understanding don't matter nearly as much, and verse good wolves it can come down to mostly lucky breaks.

RoguexRanger

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 70
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2014, 11:42:47 pm »
The problem with 4vs2 BD is the vast majority of players aren't skilled/patient enough to play that mode as wolf. Like Beer says, you're better off letting the round end quickly as possible so you can sheep. BD does require a higher level of skill but not when sheep outnumber wolves that much. It's similar to Revo in that regard because sheep might not see a wolf all round. @Sidey I still don't know why you proclaim yourself the best at BD in those situations when all you did was avoid the wolf.

Chakra

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
    • Chatcraft
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2014, 12:16:06 am »
Arguments that you shouldn't bother trying as shepherd in BD are ridiculous. The same argument can be made to just AFK as wolf in ReVo (which was/still might be a common problem). Wolfing isn't that bad, and it is much better in BD. But this is an argument about the merit of the game alone, not about the skill. The obviously skillful thing to do is to try as shepherd, as giving free scores will not help you, even if you get to play sheep more.

Even in 4v2, if the sheep doesn't see a wolf, you're playing too large of a level or playing was abominably bad wolves. That being said, 4v2 is a bit too stretched in the favor of the sheep: any competent sheep team would basically always win. I'd much rather play 3v3 if I'm playing with other competent players.

I also think one of the important things was that this thread is about correlation to skill in ReVo. I don't see how using completely obscure farms or abilities that don't exist in ReVo can really correlate to ReVo skill. Skill is a factor in CTF, I'm sure, but the same skill set? Hardly. Everything in BD, however, can directly translate to ReVo.

Arguing which game takes the most skill is another topic and a bit silly to argue, mainly because of how bias most players are.

FaceOfMelinda

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 364
    • View Profile
Re: Correlates of Skill
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2014, 12:30:18 am »
It's easy to imagine metrics such as pick-order versus BD scores to establish some sort of insight into this. Pick order is ofc emotional but good players generally are not picked last and toilet-players are generally not picked first.

@Rogue you still don't seem to understand BD. Opposite to other sheep games, the skill cap doesn't hit wolves first - it hits SHEEP. BD ranking is primarily determined by your ability to play wolf.  Retarded 0 IQ horse-brains think BD is about making a cool trick and running to the end - NO - when you're sheep the goal is not to reach the end or make a cool trick - it's to draw as much attention to yourself as you possibly can at all times to unload your allies.

That's why the runtag crew FAIL miserably at BD. It's not a runtag-trix game. It's a test of your wolfing ability (i.e., micro, mini-map, tracking multiple sheep, map control, etc) and teamwork skills as sheep.

@Chakra 4v2 on small maps vs average euro runtag kids = you get plenty of kills as wolf. (Modes ofc depend on the average skill of the players involved)




 

Recent Posts

Re: Sheep Tag (East) A Complete History by iAMMYOWNSTONE
March 26, 2023, 04:46:15 am

Re: Sheep Tag (East) A Complete History by Alph4bet
January 03, 2023, 02:14:02 pm

ΠΊΠ°ΠΏΠ»ΠΈ для похудСния by Mrunitemanymn
August 19, 2022, 07:27:59 pm

ΠΊΠ°ΠΏΠ»ΠΈ для похудСния by Mrunitemanymn
August 19, 2022, 12:44:08 pm

Reconnecting With The Community - Sheep Tag Discord by FaceOfMelinda
January 11, 2022, 12:45:00 am

Re: Sheep Tag (East) A Complete History by Mitnek
August 17, 2021, 04:11:39 am

YOoooo by Celestial_One
February 04, 2020, 04:05:05 pm

hey guys! by Celestial_One
January 01, 2020, 01:08:18 am


Shoutbox

View Shout History