Author Topic: Forum Council (Read 204 times)

Chiefhero[sks] · « **on:** November 06, 2013, 03:11:47 pm »

inspiration: the remove/keep quote party debate. both sides thought they won the debate, both sides thought their arguments were stronger. the problem is possible bias/lack of ability to evaluate the arguments with only 1 judge, especially when the judge also partakes in the debate. sort of like having william lane craig deciding the winning side in a god debate, which also dictactes whether we should teach evolution or creationism in school.

proposal: have a council that votes for forum changes/ideas. debates are public and everyone can participate, then you have 3/5/whatever people vote on what we should do(basically deciding the winning side in the debate).

reasons: 1) solves (atleast partially) the problems stated above. 2) includes a bigger portion of the community in community related decisions. 3) reduces risk of "hitler" incidents.

who should be in the council?: i dont give a ****. we can discuss this once we agree a council is the best system for making decisions. but a possible combination is sidey/shoop/chakra, eventually adding exa/night/shya/sheepgod/me/whoever if we want more people.

in other words, we're still including the entire community in the debates (just like the current system), the only difference being that we're having more than 1 person ultimately deciding what's best for the community.

Shyamora[SkS] · « **Reply #1 on:** November 06, 2013, 03:38:16 pm »

Seems like a nice idea, though in certain debates 2/3 will still be subjective to a certain side. If anything, we need people who can objectively judge something. In other words, we need people who look at both sides of the debate with equal interest / reason.

Chiefhero[sks] · « **Reply #2 on:** November 06, 2013, 04:00:13 pm »

Quote from: SHYA

Seems like a nice idea, though in certain debates 2/3 will still be subjective to a certain side. If anything, we need people who can objectively judge something. In other words, we need people who look at both sides of the debate with equal interest / reason.

this is, ofcourse, the goal.

we are never going to get rid of subjectivity/bias - this doesn't mean that we shouldn't minimize it. 3 people, despite certain subjectivity, seems better than 1 person? ideally we would include everyone on the vote, the problem is that the vast majority doesnt read/care about debate, are easily manipulated/brainwashed or lack the ability to make good calls. this is why it's also good to limit the council to not include too many people. how many council-members we should have is up for debate, for sure.

baiten92 · « **Reply #3 on:** November 06, 2013, 04:39:35 pm »

Sidey and Chakra seems legit, but why don't we add any Chieftain from all STC clan ? Beside behh since it's not an ST clan anymore ?

Chiefhero[sks] · « **Reply #4 on:** November 06, 2013, 04:48:15 pm »

Quote from: baiten

Sidey and Chakra seems legit, but why don't we add any Chieftain from all STC clan ? Beside behh since it's not an ST clan anymore ?

the council could be made out of chieftains, but we're not going to pick members based on their status in a clan. it's similar to suggesting that we make the council out of people with brown hair.

in other words: its a bad criteria that doesn't solve the problem; possibly enchances it. i think we should pick council-members based on their ability to analyze arguments, as well as stay openminded/unbiased.

it's hard to determine who fills these criteria, but the criteria are good(in contrast to picking people based on haircolour, status in clan, or how many girls they've had sex with).

baiten92 · « **Reply #5 on:** November 06, 2013, 05:40:54 pm »

Shoop isn't a bad writter or anything, but he always goes on history debates or swedish jokes etc. And I guess that CMK and all other great players / loyal players have a part in deciding the forum changes, no ?
it's not about status, but they have a clan responsability, and can have a common voice for one clan.. Dno woulda be nice for me

Spoofy · « **Reply #6 on:** November 06, 2013, 06:37:45 pm »

Amir, to my understanding you are making a council of inactive sheep taggers. i agree sidey and chakra should be on the council. sidey owns the forums, and has done a good job so far. chakra is logical and is generally unbiased. however,how are the other members of the council ANY better than ACTIVE members who have a "position of power" in a clan? i believe the council should be sidey, chakra, amir, cmk (or a representative to write for him jm/baiten/myself/rogue) [clan csb], and shyamora OR koala [clan sor].

edit: added a word

Chiefhero[sks] · « **Reply #7 on:** November 06, 2013, 06:53:18 pm »

Quote

Shoop isn't a bad writter or anything, but he always goes on history debates or swedish jokes etc. And I guess that CMK and all other great players / loyal players have a part in deciding the forum changes, no ?
it's not about status, but they have a clan responsability, and can have a common voice for one clan.. Dno woulda be nice for me

idc about shoop, could be a council without him. i think he fits the criteria i've set though, atleast moreso than alternatives. the important thing is that people agree on the council, then we can debate who we want in it.

with my suggestion (clan council), cmk and loyal players will have just as much part in deciding forum changes as they have right now. nothing will change for them, or anyone other players. the only thing that will change is who makes the ''final decision''. instead of it being "sidey ultimately makes all decisions alone" -> we make it "the council votes on all decisions".

clan responsibility and ''voice for one clan'' are irrelevant for me. imo, all that matters is that the people in the council are open-minded and know how to tell good ideas from bad ones (to put it in simple terms). if this happens to be clan leaders, then np. if people think shoop and chaise are best fit for the job, also np.

Quote

Amir, to my understanding you are making a council of inactive sheep taggers. i agree sidey and chakra should be on the council. sidey owns the forums, and has done a good job so far. chakra is logical and is generally unbiased. however,how are the other members of the council ANY better than ACTIVE members who have a "position of power" in a clan? i believe the council should be sidey, chakra, amir, cmk (or a representative to write for him jm/baiten/myself/rogue) [clan csb], and shyamora OR koala [clan sor].

Since shoop plays st, and you agree on chakra/sidey, who is it you think are inactive players?

but lets assume many of the people i suggested are inactive:

1) it was just a suggestion, we're obviously going to discuss and agree on who we want in the council, it won't be me deciding it.

2) i don't think it matters that they're inactive. whether they play ST or not doesn't increase/decrease their ability to make good decisions for the forum.

keep in mind that inactive players have done some of the best things for our community; mavericksheep and his forum, exas whisforum, chakras last periods of mapmaking, shoops previous forum, sideys current forum, and so on. they were all inactive sheeptaggers when they managed these projects. what's important is the persons qualities, not whether he runtags, plays dota, or doesn't play at all.

is there anyone who thinks the council is a worse system than having 1 person decide all forum decisions? as long as we agree on a council, we can debate who we want in it.

baiten92 · « **Reply #8 on:** November 06, 2013, 06:56:39 pm »

Of course it's a good idea, until you ask active people (who uses forum alot aswell) for incoming changes, and not get stucked with 4 head-leader people that chooses everything, and we, people out of council, can't have a word for it or to discuss.
Am I right ?
Otherwise, it's just another ****, and only 4 persons instead of 1 will be chosing the changes and updates and blabla... so what would it change ? lol

(And I totally agree with Spoofy tho.)

Night · « **Reply #9 on:** November 06, 2013, 07:38:55 pm »

Most important part is to analyze what are powers are council being given. To determine who wins debate is not so crucial, on the other hand things like FORUMS, community advancement and sheep tag MAP debate is what matters. For example right now no one gives a s*it if chakra updates st map , no one plays because it hasn't been verified, acknowledged by the community.
Thats why i support the IDEA in general, but still there are lots of things to discuss concerning the council members, their powers and so on.

FaceOfMelinda · « **Reply #10 on:** November 16, 2013, 11:27:04 pm »

I support this.

But you all need to collectively come up with a detailed plan, its execution, etc.

I'm already pulling too much weight, if you want changes like this you'll all have to do your part.

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Chiefhero[sks]

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baiten92

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