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Author Topic: Serious Map Discussion  (Read 445 times)

XXXandBEER

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #15 on: November 03, 2014, 06:11:29 am »
Could also be interesting to have a "convert to income" upgrade. It would cost ~25 gold and remove the farm from the game, but continue to provide the gold/sec. Dying would reset your income. Basically pay 25 gold to make your farm unable to be killed.

I like where your head is at with this idea, but it would need a high build time imo to prevent abuse. Which idea do most of you guys prefer?
Upgrade the farm for more gold/sec
or
Permanent income

@Nmcdo/008
Yes a point system is cool, but I think making a properly working one would be way to up for debate. Whose to say getting a kill is worth more points then something else or the other way around. It is almost impossible to make a proper "Overall performance" point system.

HaWkys

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #16 on: November 03, 2014, 12:44:03 pm »
The problem is when you have a ranking system, you ALWAYS have people trying to cheat it, making a point based system that is solid is a lot of work with no reward. #UpgradeThe$$$$$Farm

Nmcdo

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #17 on: November 03, 2014, 01:50:52 pm »
Nothing is perfect Beer, but we can make it close as it possible can be new proposition:
Mid (wolf) = 1 point / Sec
Wolf kill = 25 points
Wolf Assist = 15 Points
1 Farm = 2 points (Not sure about this)
Saving = 25 points
Middle as sheep = 1 point / Sec
Corners as sheep = 0.5 point / sec
Last sheep alive = 15 points
This system gives a pretty good balance as most sheep points are lower because sheep usually have more options point wise.
Can I please get a response that isn't "Its to hard to decide" I've worked with everything youve said.
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XXXandBEER

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #18 on: November 03, 2014, 03:20:20 pm »
@Nmcdo
Final Answer no
The goal of Sheep Tag is to win the game (last the round time). Shouldn't matter how you do it, as long as you do do it.
What I'm saying is that people will go for these "points" and maybe lose the round to suicide save a sheep for "25 points" or whatever. I do not want to make the goal "earn the most points" I want the goal of Sheep Tag to be win the round!! You're probably going to say make winning the round give points. Which makes sense, but now it starts coming down to whose on your team. Then what happens? Should I give extra points to people who get the person whose in last on their team? Where does it end?!

An overall performance rating to me just doesn't seem that important. All it will do is feed peoples egos and cause mad arguments. You don't need a silly number to know how well you played and you shouldn't care what other people think about your game play.

Also keeping track of all these points for 12 players could potentially cause lag for some people. Very minuscule lag, but it may be noticeable to some.

Nmcdo

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #19 on: November 03, 2014, 08:40:45 pm »
Finally a really nice response, and I agree, as you know it was an idea and I wanted to see how far I could allocate it towards ST. I'm liking the push towards winning as sheep, as of right now maybe 1 in 50 rounds (larger games) get close or actually win. But I also think people don't want St to be boring, so we are at a huge conflict here as far as I can see. The majority of European players prefer faster and no games won style,  while it seems quite a few American players agree on winning as a goal - not a show. So the idea really is behind what people want /you want. Keep it the way it is and add some stuff or move towards a more possible winning game. My regards.
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FaceOfMelinda

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #20 on: November 03, 2014, 08:56:08 pm »
Arguably buff wolves - but not in a way that requires 0 skill (i.e., more damage).

Wolves need items similar to the str potion that require understanding, reflexes, and timing.


I also think it's CRAZY to suggest that sheep should win more. Games won by sheep are almost always boring with players going AFK and no one - including the sheep team - having a good time.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 12:10:49 am by FaceOfMelinda »

FaceOfMelinda

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #21 on: November 03, 2014, 09:17:55 pm »
Another point:

NONE OF YOU EVER WANT TO PLAY BD. A game where sheep are mastery-capped and the wolves shine.

It seems as if playing wolf is boring - by your own collective admission.

Celestial_One

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #22 on: November 03, 2014, 09:45:33 pm »
A few buffs to wolves I also was thinking about before sidey mentioned it.

Make mirror imaging near instantaneous, and reduce mana cost.

Why?

1. Mirror imaging is singlehandedly the biggest technical skill, arguably even more skillful than goleming. If we reduce the cast time then the people who can do it better will be rewarded with more kills.

2. Mirror imaging right now is hugely lackluster. It takes too long, and usually just results in you getting trapped rather than a kill. The reduction in cast time will also allow wolves under lots of pressure to make an illusions and hold their side. This rewards micromanagement AND wolves that understand cutting better.

Another idea. Make bombers less garbage. I don't know how maybe some other people can come up with some ideas but right now it's complete garbage. The only time bombers are useful as of now is when you have THREE of them and basically a sheep is already isolated. Pretty trashy item if you need three of them for any impact.

Buff gloves. I don't know how many times I've said this throughout the years... gloves has NEVER been a legitimate strategy due to their absurd gold cost. Gloves are comparable to the same price as a golem (Which in essense gives you 1 shot at a kill). Compare the relative cost vs usefulness of gloves vs golems and you can easily see how bad they are right now. Lower gold cost or raise attack speed. I need my extendo ****.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2014, 09:48:59 pm by Celestial_One »

XXXandBEER

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #23 on: November 04, 2014, 05:54:17 am »
@nmcdo
Exactly so we need to figure out the direction we want to head in before we go implementing point systems! Good idea though!

@cele
Are we talking like F20 mirror images? Cause those were kinda OP lol. I do think the speed should be increased, but how much is the right amount?

Bombers do suck. So I propose 2 options
Option 1: Reduce AOE and Cost greatly. And increase its damage to 1 hit a regular farm. This would make it a ranged STR pot with splash in essence.
Option 2: Revert it back to the path blocking bomber it used to be. (people complained this ruined runtag so lets put it up for debate)
Preferably I like option 1. Just need to work out the costs etc.

As for gloves I do think the price is unfair, but they definitely give plenty of AS at 33%

Celestial_One

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #24 on: November 04, 2014, 08:55:25 am »
Hear me out:

Damage is amplified to Buildings-Under-Construction (BUC?). There is only 2 items in the game that can do ranged damage. Ranged Str pot, and bombers. So logically the most practical use for bombers is to destroy (BUC). (Yes, there is those insane 3? bomber attacks but those are overrated and costly, and rarely successful).

What I'm proposing would still retain what you can do currently, but now they are relative throughout the entire match. Here's the jist:

Lower bomber damage to be equivalent to 1/5 the damage of a normal farm (it requires you to buy 5 to do the mass bomb ***). Since I don't know the numbers that's where you could help. Current cost should still be relative to how much it would still cost to currently kill a full hp aoe of normal farms (or whatever you think is fair, honestly I think this value would still be good)

*- I kind of just chose this since I think that you should have to be quick to cast it as they build... the problem is the reaction i'm hoping for might be too fast or too slow, we could tinker or maybe you could figure something out. Could always go 1/6 or 1/7 with respective costs.

So why are these changes positive?

Well now we finally have an active (fun?) item that's an interim between golems, cloaks, and other costly items. It would be clumped into the same class as speed pots, invuln pots, and both str pots. It rewards fast reactions (kill dat aura farm or frost farm before it gets canceled!), strategic thinking (mid now needs a bomber in case of frost farms?!) all the while not being overpowered.

So what are the negatives?

People, at first, may overuse bombers. Yeah that might kind of suck but in essence these changes don't make bombers overpowered, they're just useful (unlike what they are now). People who can use bombers more effectively will use them more, and have more success with them. People who "just don't get it" will buy bombers and be useless with them, however that's a problem for every item and any skill you add to a game.

In closing:

I think we can all agree that wolfing is the most boring part of sheep tag. Sheeping is what is sought after, and though sheep rarely win... when they do it seems like NOBODY enjoys it. I hope that this item, in part, solves some of that issue (yay an active item that's cheap, useful, and requires a bit of knowledge and skill!).

I hope that we can even implement another active item that shepherds can use as well, later on. After we see the positive effects of bomber (I'm 100% certain that the community will enjoy this change), hopefully people will be more open to new ideas for a cheap cost item (ideas folks?? attack speed potion? psuedo attack potion (lower damage to 0!)).

As far as illusions go... god no not 2.0 speed. But maybe somewhere halfway what it is now and what it was. I have a feeling peasants would revolt at this change though... tread lightly lol.

And as far as gloves go... a slight reduction in cost would suffice!

Sorry about the edits... my internet went out and i had to redo a lot of this post.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2014, 10:23:43 pm by Celestial_One »

XXXandBEER

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #25 on: November 04, 2014, 11:46:04 pm »
So cele for your bomber option you want a super cheaper low damage bomber that can destroy farms that are building and/or destroy a full HP farm with 5 of them.
I like it anyone oppose?

Illusions I think we should let be for now

Gloves cost will be lowered

HaWkys

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #26 on: November 05, 2014, 01:54:16 am »
I agree with most of it beer, but the idea of it being "super cheap" is well, kind of cheap ^^ All wolves will use that ability often and if a sheep is caught in a tiny mass, rather than holding sides / using skill, u can just drop the bomber and it kills 5 farms? I'd suggest making it atleast 40 - 50 gold.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #27 on: November 05, 2014, 02:17:12 am »
@hawkys
No, it would only be able to kill farms that are currently building (auras/frost or even a regular farm if timed perfectly). In order to kill an AOE of farms you would need to purchase 5 of them (200ish gold)

HaWkys

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #28 on: November 05, 2014, 02:38:34 am »
Ok, i misread what you said, sorry for the pointless post, but i am glad that people are taking this seriously and voicing their opinion.

Madhatters

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Re: Serious Map Discussion
« Reply #29 on: November 05, 2014, 07:29:21 am »
5 hit farm = 24 damage

Aura farm has 200 health, 10 second build time, aka 20 health/sec, aka 1.2 seconds to hit with bomber to kill.

Frost farm has 200 health, 6 second build time, aka 33 health sec aka .72 seconds to hit with bomber to kill.

Shepherd cast point = .3 seconds
Bomber animation delay = .25 seconds
Turn rate is variable and who knows the exact time it takes, but it factors in.

So at least .55 seconds between casting and damage being dealt.

.72 - .55(+) = max .17 seconds between a sheep building a frost farm and a shepherd targeting it. This doesn't even factor in latency. Seems pretty much impossible without casting before it begins construction, which is risky at best.

1.2 - .55(+) = max .65 seconds for aura farm. This is definitely doable, but you'd still most likely have to have a bomber in your inventory and quick reactions with little delay.

I'd suggest more than 24 damage, or maybe 150% damage to constructing structures. I think constructing structures have armor type unarmored so you could change
Advanced>Gameplay Constants> Combat - Damage Bonus Table - Spells
to 150% against unarmored to do this. Haven't tested this.

Kind of hard to balance the item when build times and healths are so drastically different without triggering it for individual farms or at least making it percent based. Regular farm would only have a .2 second opening... you'd have to cast before the sheep started building just to have a chance. Upgraded or strong would be virtually impossible.

I'm not opposed to the idea, I just think it might turn into an item solely used to kill aura farms or not used at all.

Edit: if the item is supposed to automatically kill any constructing structure, I don't like it. A ridiculously easy kill on auras/frosts for less gold than either farm costs.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2014, 07:32:56 am by Madhatters »

 

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