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Author Topic: Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited  (Read 82 times)

Alph4bet

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Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited
« on: October 25, 2013, 09:37:46 am »
Hey guys I'm wanting to test Shoop/Chakras map that was made a little while ago, there do need to be some immediate changes.
EG: Stack farms should be countered somehow(the stomp ability + no stacks in mid is a good idea).

The following will not be coming back in this map no matter what:
Attack Claws,
Cloak,
Money Farm,
Strong Farm,
bounty for Saving Wisps
Bounty for Killing Sheep
Gold Sharing between Wolves,
Gold Sharing While Sheep alive(We may test allowing wisps to give their gold to sheep, depends).
Two hit Normal farms

The reason why the above will not be added is the whole point of having this map in the first place. The point is to reduce the 2 - 20 problem. The 2 - 20 problem was realised by anyone decent a while ago, only some people like Shoop decided to name it "The 2 - 20 problem". At the moment we don't really have that problem with Beers map, instead we have a problem where Sheep can't last 20 minutes provided that the Shepherding team is decent.(Which is an idiotic way to deal with it tbh). The problem is that between 0 - 2 minutes(I think 3 tbh) of the game the Sheep are trying to get territory, so Shepherds have a chance of winning early, provided they are able to surround and stop the expansions and get early isolations. Now if that fails between 3 - 17 or so mins while Shepherds are trying to get the gold so they can be really decent later, it is boring for Shepherds, because they are constantly being surrounded with no repercussions. Sheep will get big later too as well as stay big at the present, to stop this problem from occurring Shoop decided to suggest these changes: Remove claws/cloak/Gold sharing/Saving farms/strong farms/bounties for wisp/sheep, They are logical and all are variables of the 2 - 20 problem. However he did remove stuff that has nothing to do with that problem at all EG Invis potions/wide farm etc... He has other reasons for those.

Later on once we have tested the current map with the Stack Farm having an immediate counter(Stomp ability + no stacks in mid). We will play with adding more to the map, EG:(I know shoop wont like it) but adding Invis Potions and along with it Sentry Farms that can't see up cliffs of course  to counter. Adding other items, other farms, Wide Farm for instance. We could also tweak the abilities like Wards etc. and hopefully like Dota1 did, design a tool that stops maphacking.

Now some of you may be asking "Why the stomp ability + no stacks in mid?".
Well we don't want a counter to stack farms that make it completely useless(Otherwise may as well going back to not having them in the first place). Stack farms are meant to add a fun aspect into the game allowing Sheep to do stuff that is otherwise impossible, however if a Sheep is strongly isolated, we don't want him escaping certain death, So adding the stomp ability is a good idea, we also don't want them being use in middle at all, for obvious reasons.

So we need to start using this map in our st partys if we don't mass test this map it'll be a waste of an idea.
I will be willing to make changes every now and then to the map(Of course I'll be asking chakra to help me, because I'm currently very busy, at the moment I'm digging into my time by playing on euro with community at early hours of the morning). Hopefully Chakra will agree to help. NOW WHO'S WITH ME IN TESTING THIS MAP AND GETTING IT OFF THE GROUND?!
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 11:24:03 am by Alph4bet »

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SharingMyHeroes

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Re: Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited
« Reply #1 on: October 25, 2013, 02:19:31 pm »
I am ok to test maps but;
as it is now on beer's map, being wolf is completly boring even with claws/cloaks etc.
how will it be when you have no claws/cloaks against 3hits farms or upgraded ones? please lol.

FaceOfMelinda

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Re: Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited
« Reply #2 on: October 25, 2013, 02:28:46 pm »
"instead we have a problem where Sheep can't last 20 minutes provided that the Shepherding team is decent."

This is NOT a problem but good map design. Some of you appear to be holding on to this archaic ideological belief that each side should win similar amounts of time. Why? It amounts to horrible game-play. We instead - much like the current map - need a map where sheep barely EVER win.

What you're essentially planning is to double (probably more) everyone's wolfing time. Who wants that :D?

Chiefhero[sks]

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Re: Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited
« Reply #3 on: October 25, 2013, 03:37:12 pm »
1) sheep rarely lasting 20 min is probably good. i'd even argue that sheep never reaching the time-limit is ideal (*practically no ties/always a clear winner, *rounds/fun don't suddently stop, especially for the sheep, *wolves don't get a free pass by slacking until the round ends if time-limit is increase or removed entirely, etc). one good reason to keep a time-limit is to avoid 2 hour rounds with unfair teams. just make sure that the wolves get exponentially stronger to keep an acceptable average survivalrate. why exactly do you want sheep to reach the maximum time-limit alot? or even at all?

2) 2-20 was always exaggerated and was never a real problem (the notion that rounds can last short/long instead of averaging around 10 minutes, with 1-2 minutes deviation). this has been covered before. kind of crazy to propose a decrease in the 2-20 scenario, yet argue that we need more 20 minute rounds? or am i missing something? usually people wanna decrease 2-20 by implementing a more centered spread of survivalrates, where vast majority of games fall somewhere within 7-13 minutes.

3) st is a game where both teams play both wolf and sheep. it's not a "sheep vs wolves" game in the sense that you only achieve balance/good map design if both sides win equally much. such a fallacy was used before as support to remove the stack-farm, because it made the sheep "have an unfair advantage". complete garbadge.






anyway i wish u the best of luck, shoop and chakra are a great team for this project (one theory king and one technical king).

edit - nice theory: increase isolation-power from wolves and escape-power from sheep. get rid of the anti-stack-stomp and anti-stack-mid. the counter to more escapes/saves from sheep should be more isolations/kills from the wolves. the choice to limit the use of the stack-farm makes no sense to me, when the reason stack was added is because it singlehandedly adds more fun to the game than all other farms combined. there are other ways to counter it/''balance it out"(as demonstrated by the stack in older versions), try figuring something out. stacks seem poorly incorporated in current ST based on streams i've seen, and is the biggest reason i cba play st anymore.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2013, 03:46:27 pm by Chiefhero[sks] »
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


Alph4bet

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Re: Sheep Tag Minimalistic Revisited
« Reply #4 on: October 25, 2013, 08:10:14 pm »
2) 2-20 was always exaggerated and was never a real problem (the notion that rounds can last short/long instead of averaging around 10 minutes, with 1-2 minutes deviation). this has been covered before. kind of crazy to propose a decrease in the 2-20 scenario, yet argue that we need more 20 minute rounds? or am i missing something? usually people wanna decrease 2-20 by implementing a more centered spread of survivalrates, where vast majority of games fall somewhere within 7-13 minutes.
It's not about having 20 minute rounds. Both you and SwedishChef.Lc misunderstand me, it's about the Shepherd being able to win at any stage of the game. The map before beers solution, they could not win at any moment(Provided sheep weren't completely useless at a random interval), Shepherds would either win within the first 3 minutes, or in the last few minutes, The rest of the time, they are bored out of their minds trying to farm the items up. Now on to beers solution, he has shortened the 2 - 20 to be 2 - 10(Only have around 5 - 7 minutes of uselessness for wolves). By giving them ridiculous advantages. The idea that is proposed is to have the Shepherds have the same chance of winning through out the whole game. That is the theory behind it, now whether it actually works is another thing. Hence the testing and fine tuning/balancing.

I know I said "instead we have a problem where Sheep can't last 20 minutes provided that the Shepherding team is decent." Obviously I would like to take that back and add the above to it.


 

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