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Author Topic: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic  (Read 14435 times)

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #15 on: February 28, 2017, 12:23:42 am »
Hey Mad! Thanks for the input. I agree with basically all your answers lol. Do you think people need icons for Attack and Hold? Or just the ability to A-left click or press H.

I'd love to have a few map variants all sheep tag related, ex: CTF, and Bulldog. But they'll have to wait >< Sheep Tag first!

I have a feeling movespeed, and gameplay mechanics will be getting tweaked a lot. Initially I'd like to find that sweet spot that Sheep Tag originally had and go from there.

Madhatters

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #16 on: February 28, 2017, 12:34:56 am »
I think the icons would have to stay. Right click to move is obvious enough, but H for hold position probably wouldn't be, and attack is borderline as well. It would also feel like something was missing, for me at least, to not have an attack icon.

Nmcdo

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #17 on: February 28, 2017, 02:57:22 am »
Mad brings up a very important point in my mind... slowing the game down.

100 % Agree

--> Currently the game is FAR to fast pace, which unlike people thought it would, created a game simply more based on luck, then skill itself.
There has been a few times I've played older versions of ReVo, and I found it was just that - slowed down, and you know what, I actually enjoyed it more that way. Problem was those maps were outdated and lacked all the newer commands and stuff we got.

I also think we should go back to 3 hit farms. Make sure the balancing scale is good for wolves where they don't get powerful to fast, but also aren't so slow to cut farms that the game gets boring as it goes on.
--> I also find that with two hit farms, it's basically become impossible to use skill to drag out a isolation as a sheep, with your mass collapsing basically instantly. I think it's ridiculous that even sheep as good as CMK can barely maintain in even a decent sized mass if 3-4 wolves are on him.

Thanks again ~
Respect the Runtag.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #18 on: February 28, 2017, 05:16:35 am »
Noted thanks guys!

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #19 on: March 01, 2017, 04:22:22 am »
Thoughts on having Sheep gold be dispersed automatically upon death, and then re-dispersed when revived. Essentially doing the whole -g all thing for you on death, and pooling gold from the living on revive? If so how much gold? % based, just X amount, even split among total gold.

Also, should we just combine gold? For either Sheep team or the Shepherd team?

Madhatters

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #20 on: March 01, 2017, 05:40:11 am »
Dispersing gold on death automatically would be fine, but I don't like the idea of gold ever disappearing randomly because someone else used it or was saved... going for a hard farm/golem only to find out you don't have enough gold anymore would be pretty much the most frustrating way to die/miss a kill.

I'd suggest dispersing gold on death, then giving half the saving bonus to the saved sheep and half to the saving sheep.

You could also have separate gold pools, but make all gold generation even, so instead of giving the owner 10 gold every 4 seconds, saving farms would give all surviving sheep ~2 gold every 4 seconds and similar with killing farms/sheep for shepherds. That way everyone gets the same amount of gold, but no one can steal your share, and saving farms would even somewhat incentivize keeping other sheep alive/saving them. Would probably be a good idea to disable shepherd gold sharing with this system.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #21 on: March 02, 2017, 01:19:23 am »
I do agree losing gold without your say is a bit odd.

I like the idea of just splitting the save gold.

Next Questions:
The stack farm! So let's say a stack is placed directly on top of another stack farm. Should there now be two stack farms? Or should the health of the first just double? If we choose double I think it benefits the Shepherds so they can theoretically kill two with one swing if they are strong enough.

Another gold question! Should Shepherds receive gold based on the damage they deal out, instead of on farm kill, or both? Sort of like Pillage from Wc3. I think granting gold per hit is more rewarding to the player and encourages cutting.

Also, should day/night cycle play any role?

Thoughts on trading/dropping items? I'm thinking it should just be buy/sell only.

And what about the portable shop features? -buy and such. Should I reduce the amount of typing commands as much as possible?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 01:53:08 am by XXXandBEER »

Madhatters

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #22 on: March 02, 2017, 04:37:55 am »
I'd say keep it simple with the stack farm and just have them stack as usual. Combining them seems like it would be weird with constructing/X/canceling and, while you shouldn't really be doing it in the first place, I think it would make stacking them kinda useless.

I think receiving gold upon killing the farm feels better/more satisfying, but pillage would be better in the type of situation where two shepherds are cutting together. Maybe award gold based on damage done when the farm dies, though I'm still a fan of giving equal gold to all shepherds when a farm is killed regardless of who damages it.

For day/night, if saving stays the way it is now, it might be interesting to have a short(15-60 seconds) night period where sheep spirits become invisible to shepherds making it easier to save, ideally encouraging sheep to push towards the middle in preparation and making saving easier. Or maybe make spirits only savable at night, but much easier to save (possibly instantly revived), that way a shepherd doesn't have to spend the entire game in the pen and there could be a lot of intensity trying to survive until the next night period. In general I'm a big fan of making a sheep death less catastrophic (especially when it's early in the round) and preventing spirits/shepherds from spending half the game basically AFK in the middle.

Agreed on no trading items and reducing the amount of typing as much as possible. If you're going with a portable shop, ideally all items would be purchasable from a quick shop type menu.

Nmcdo

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #23 on: March 02, 2017, 02:24:19 pm »
Yes! Why haven't we thought of this before, pillage for wolves sounds a great idea, and forces wolves to cut / play more efficiently. It also removes the aspect of wanting to finish off a farm for the gold. It makes it so you can pressure a sheep on all the farms and still make gold.
A problem would be the cloak granting more gold gain from hitting so many farms. I think a way to balance this is make claws yield less gold, but have the capacity to cut through farma faster.
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XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #24 on: March 02, 2017, 07:44:18 pm »
I'd say keep it simple with the stack farm and just have them stack as usual. Combining them seems like it would be weird with constructing/X/canceling and, while you shouldn't really be doing it in the first place, I think it would make stacking them kinda useless.
Agreed I'll keep it as usual and go from there. Little things like this could easily agitate a veteran player.

I think receiving gold upon killing the farm feels better/more satisfying, but pillage would be better in the type of situation where two shepherds are cutting together. Maybe award gold based on damage done when the farm dies, though I'm still a fan of giving equal gold to all shepherds when a farm is killed regardless of who damages it.
Evenly split gold amongst all Shepherds could be interesting, and would remove the feeding a Shepherd strategy which I think is archaic and bad design anyways. I really want to avoid a game balance where the goal is to feed 1 wolf. All players need to feel powerful as if they are progressing during the game.

For day/night, if saving stays the way it is now, it might be interesting to have a short(15-60 seconds) night period where sheep spirits become invisible to shepherds making it easier to save, ideally encouraging sheep to push towards the middle in preparation and making saving easier. Or maybe make spirits only savable at night, but much easier to save (possibly instantly revived), that way a shepherd doesn't have to spend the entire game in the pen and there could be a lot of intensity trying to survive until the next night period. In general I'm a big fan of making a sheep death less catastrophic (especially when it's early in the round) and preventing spirits/shepherds from spending half the game basically AFK in the middle.
I really really like this idea. Definitely will have to play with it. Not sure which version I like. Maybe a hybrid?

I like the idea that there won't have to be a 'Camper', but I also like the idea of easier saves at night. Maybe during the day the Wisp is visible to the Shepherd's only making it so Sheep have to make a Sentry or get vision some how to save. During the night the Wisp is only visible to the Sheep making the Shepherd have to get vision via Wards or elsewhere. This could drastically change the flow of the game though, people expanding during the day and collapsing on the pen at night, could make for an exciting game.

Need more opinions on this matter!!!

Agreed on no trading items and reducing the amount of typing as much as possible. If you're going with a portable shop, ideally all items would be purchasable from a quick shop type menu.
Yes! Exactly! The less typing the better.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #25 on: March 02, 2017, 10:49:22 pm »
NMCDO and I came up with a unique idea for Savings Farms.

The typical savings farm goes like this:
-Wait till you have 35 gold
-Blow it all on a savings farm
-Hope it doesnt die within the first 3 seconds.
-Then you die cause you have no gold :D

It's currently extremely punishing to make a savings farm unless your mass is the size of Texas. In which case it is extremely punishing for the Wolves to catch up, as you can just sit and spam Savings farms safely without having to do anything else.

SOLUTION!
After you have built X amount of farms you are awarded a "Bank Token" where you can make a money farm. We found a good medium to be between 25-35 farms before a bank token is awarded.

This not only encourages players to build farms, but prevents them from sitting in a corner and massing savings farms. They now have to play and constantly build farms to acquire a bank token.

I think it will benefit both Sheep and Shepherd gameplay, and it will be more clear to newer players that they have a bank token they should make a bank/money farm.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 10:51:04 pm by XXXandBEER »

HaWkys

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2017, 12:35:00 am »
I am in favor of COMPLETELY REMOVING SAVING FARMS

I think most legends will agree, an important aspect of st is gold management. Using it when it matters. Maybe we can put it to a vote or something.

edit: maybe instead of every one interval adding the gold, but every second interval. So u would have 3 seconds 1 gold. Then the next 3 seconds ur gold depends on how many saving s farms (if none is 0) then the next cycle u get 1 gold? What u think about this beer?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 12:36:47 am by HaWkys »

Madhatters

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2017, 04:32:03 am »
I would agree that saving farms should be removed or preferably immediately removed upon finishing construction and turned into income (like st hiding/farm defense/relapse). Like you said Beer, the only way the current saving farm is useful is if you have a giant mass/no pressure, which I think is pretty much the opposite of what we want to see in games. The problem with completely removing them from the game is they are the only way sheep get better throughout the round, so we would need to add something like leveling up as the round goes on (I like the idea of this even with saving farms).

The two interval idea is basically the way it currently is except you turned the default gold interval and saving farm interval to be 6 seconds, instead of what they are now (1 and 4, maybe?). Really more of a balance issue I'd say.

I think the tokens would have a positive impact on the game, but they feel a little hacky/forced to me. Kinda hard to describe, but just getting this token every 30 farms doesn't feel like part of a real game, as much as being forced to do something. I guess it's better if you get +1 food every time you build a farm, and then can build a chicken farm or some **** for 30 food in addition to gold, but it still seems weird to have a currency that is only used for one thing. Maybe if frost farms/aura farms also had animals involved and cost food to build?

« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 04:37:10 am by Madhatters »

XXXandBEER

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2017, 05:10:31 am »
The Sheep need a way to get gold for better farms or as Mad stated 'Level Up' now leveling up could be a solution that lots of gamers are already familiar with.

Sheep could level up from building farms, and saving allies.
Wolves would level up from killing sheep, and hitting farms.

If we do a level up system for both Sheep and Wolf, we could potentially get rid of gold entirely. Wolves would get abilities and would be able to tech into different trees if they want to be a 'damage' wolf, 'summoner' wolf, 'support' wolf etc. Which could actually be pretty neat, and create some good strategies.

Overall it would eliminate the need for shops, items (which most items are 1 off abilities anyways), and gold. Who thinks a system like this could work? I could mock up a skill tree. Sheep could also have a skill tree, but I think since there's not many farms, we should just unlock farms as they play longer and level up.

Important question is how do we handle upper tier farms. For instance once they unlock an 'aura' farm do we put it on cooldown so they can't just keep making aura farm? Or should it be mana based. So regular farm is 0 mana, aura farm is 45 mana etc, upgrade could 4, etc.

This could really work I think!


Madhatters

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Re: Sheep Tag Remake - Aesthetic
« Reply #29 on: March 03, 2017, 05:45:31 am »
Check out http://www.epicwar.com/maps/262649/ . It's somewhere between revolution and what you described above. Consumables are pretty much entirely replaced by hero abilities, and shepherds choose from a few classes. Sheep leveling up was planned, but sheep tag was pretty much dead already. We had some pretty solid 2v4/3v5 games for a few weeks though.

If you don't feel like actually playing it, I described the changes a while back in http://sheeptag.createaforum.com/community-discussion/sheep-tag-relapse-1-0-0/msg5075/#msg5075

I think gold is probably still a good idea for building farms and buying passive items though.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 05:48:19 am by Madhatters »

 

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