+-

Elder Scrolls


Author Topic: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II  (Read 1601 times)

Madhatters

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2015, 08:58:50 pm »
Was messing around the game by myself, not having to turn to build makes the game feel incredibly weird to me, but by the worst part is not being able to build on top of a previous build order to correct a misbuild.

GosuSheep

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2015, 10:40:29 pm »
Hatter: I have no idea what you're talking about.

Chakra: I concur. I don't know if range motion buffer is a thing on sc2, but I've asked him to look into that and map control first.

Nmcdo

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 383
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2015, 11:38:40 pm »
Nmcdo#1759
Respect the Runtag.

Chakra

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
    • Chatcraft
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2015, 02:55:41 am »
Madhatters is referring to, if in WC3, the ability to cancel a current build order by simply issuing another. In WC3 you can place this overwriting order in the same spot or partially on top of the old one. In SC2 you get an error stating that you can't place the building there even though it's only being blocked by a planned structure and not an existing one.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 04:33:55 am by Chakra »

XXXandBEER

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2015, 03:57:46 am »
Yeah thats really dumb not sure why they changed that :/

Basis

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2015, 04:52:44 am »
by the worst part is not being able to build on top of a previous build order to correct a misbuild.

This is a good catch, thanks. I'll play around and see if this is fixable for the next update.

Well, the biggest improvement would be autoing working.

I assume this is auto attacking? The lack of range slop was an intentional effort to get the attack mechanic a little more in line with wc3's but it obviously didn't do the job correctly. We're playing around with a different solution that is more forgiving from different angles & doesn't feel like a bug to the player.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 06:33:53 am by Basis »

Chakra

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
    • Chatcraft
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2015, 06:08:19 am »
Yes, auto attacking. I'd aim for an even better system than WC3's, which had some notorious issues (which are debatable). I believe if I press "s" or attack-move anywhere, the wolf/shepherd should ALWAYS target a sheep if it's within a few units of distance (say the units visibility range). But then again, I haven't played ST or an RTS in years, so my coordination is quite low. :P

Madhatters

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2015, 07:05:04 am »
008 and I were playing earlier and it isn't great, at least if you're expecting anything like wc3 sheep tag. Nothing against the creators or anything, the map is actually pretty nice, it just doesn't seem like the engine will allow it to be very similar (or maybe most of the reason it feels so weird is really just turn rate).

Building on top of the sheep is incredibly unpredictable in terms of bounce, and I had a lot of trouble even bbing when a wolf was chasing me, so I don't see runtag every really being possible, though this might just be because wolves are 10x faster than sheep and the turn rate thing, and might get easier with practice.



For the map, if you're taking suggestions I'd say:

Teams: One game everyone but one person selected sheep, so we ended up playing 6v1 or something. The wolf got a few AIs, but they obviously aren't on par with a player. Id suggest forcing someone to be wolf if the need arises.

Saving system: if there are 8 sheep and 4 wolves, and the sheep just don't all die in the same location, the wolves are never going to win. The pen isn't a great solution either, but at least it makes winning possible. It might be interesting to try some sort of respawn system, where your timer got longer every death by a minute or so. Would allow shepherds to focus on killing instead of having to dedicate players to camping, and would prevent sheep from sitting for huge periods of time because their team can't be asked to save them.

Attacking in general: Chakra already mentioned the attack priority thing, but I also saw several times when a sheep actually touched a wolf that was chasing it, and the wolf gave an awkward stutter and didn't attack it. A sheep can often just run in a straight line while being chased and not be killed.

Sight: For sheep, I'd like a little larger sight radius, wolves are/can get so fast that reaction time is very low, something I feel like should never be a problem without invisibility. For wolves, there are a couple things: a sheep who just runs in circles around a tree is basically impossible to target as they stay in line of sight for like .1 seconds (side note, maybe make sheep selection circle a bit bigger to make this easier, if priority attack isn't working). I'm not crazy about how much trees actually block line of sight in general. The other thing is, when playing as a shepherd, despite laying a ward every cooldown, I felt like I had no vision of the map and had trouble just finding sheep. Maybe make ward a base ability or up the vision radius.

Shade chase ability: The one where the shade follows you and kills you if it touches... seems way more powerful than every other ability, I'd suggest having it follow in a far less direct route, aka having the angle of pursuit adjust slowly (like the motion of homing missile in warlocks, or the felhunter in HHF).

Images: Currently it doesn't seem like there is any pathing check on the image ability. You can image into a mass of farms, over hills, etc.

Sheep damage: bring back 1 hit kills on farms please.

Destroy hotkey: esc is a bit of a reach for me personally, I'd like to see D make a comeback.

Leaderboard: It appears in the center of the screen and forces you to hold tab down, I prefer the wc3 style toggle in the top right corner as you can still play with the leaderboard showing.

Hills: Currently you can jump over hills with just a wide farm. Not really a big deal or anything, particular for ultimate style gameplay, just seems too easy. Wider hills would be nice.

Wolf gold/items: I filled my inventory pretty quickly and then didn't have anything to do with my gold. More slots and items (one that relearns abilities would be nice) wouldn't hurt.

Selection: I wasn't able to select multiple farms at a time by dragging a box over them or double clicking. There also doesn't seem to be any sort of "click this to target my sheep/shepherd" button, and clicking the portrait of the unit doesn't pan my camera to the unit. I really like all these features in wc3.

We tried two types of sheep tag on sc2, so sorry if any of this is from the other map, not rivals. Also sorry for writing a novel.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2015, 07:15:26 am by Madhatters »

Basis

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 8
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2015, 09:08:52 am »
Thanks for the feedback. However, you appear to be under the false assumption that the sc2 engine is not malleable: turn rates are just a variable, the location of where the sheep jumps is controlled via trigger, etc. An engine update was already underway with changes to, among other things, how jumping works to make it more predictable & prioritize diagonal jumps where applicable and a rework of how the wolf attack functions. This update should begin to address most of your concerns around attack, jump, movement, and turn mechanics. But regarding your other points:
  • Teams: I had a system like that in place in another sheep tag game I made on sc2 (likely the other one you played), the bottom line is forcing a team switch is even more damaging than putting in a bot, it doesn't feel good as a player to be swapped and the leave rate of those swapped players is very high
  • Saving System: the design of the classic sheep tag pen is fundamentally flawed, we will be moving forward and explore this new design and if it happens that it's unable to balanced around then we will consider other solutions. The problem here is likely more about wolf map control, and the spirits tend to aggregate anyway.
  • Shade chase ability (Creeper): I'd disagree on the current state of this ability's balance, if it becomes a problem then it can be dealt with but it's not a problem at the moment
  • Images: yes, this a known issue
  • Sheep damage: 1 hit kills on your own farms is coming next patch, jury's still out whether that will be allowed on allied farms
  • Destroy hotkey: other people have also asked about this, will consider it
  • Leaderboard: the tabbed leaderboard is staying, but I've thought about adding some sort of score (probably kills/saves) to on-screen team display top left
  • Hills: It's easier to jump using the wide farm in the other sheep tag you played than in Rivals, but it's still possible at some angles. This does bug me as well.
  • Wolf gold/items: items are supposed to be an upgrade system and not an all-you-can-eat buffet, more slots is likely not going to happen but we do plan more (powerful) items to sink gold into. The price of the items has also not been calibrated all that much.
  • Selection: this is an issue with Blizzard's implementation of the wc3 models, a workaround here will be needed although in sheep tag you shouldn't be mass selecting farms all that often... This isn't explicitly called out but you can press spacebar to return to & select your hero. clicking the unit portrait and it not panning to the selected unit is a known issue

HaWkys

  • Masser Deluxe
  • *******
  • Posts: 740
  • NMCDO = biggest clown
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2015, 03:50:13 pm »
so we have a choice people. Stay on wc3 where the sheep tag is dead and nonexistent or move to a different engine where not everything is the same. I have played both and I think I will be playing on sc2 but still coming on wc3 to play. It isn't perfect but its the logical game when you take activity into account. We just need basis to fix some bugs and **** and I will be very happy with it.

Madhatters

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 60
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2015, 07:16:24 pm »
I knew turn rate could be adjusted, but yeah, I was assuming build and attack were defaults like they are in wc3.

Maybe instead of forcing a swap, you could disable joining the sheep/wolf team if they had more than X players, so the last few people to select a team might not be able to choose sheep, or at least have some sort of cancel command for the first 10-15 seconds... spending an entire round with only one wolf is pretty miserable.

Sheep 1 hit killing farms really only matters for other people's farms, I can just D/esc my own.

Anyways, seems like we are in agreement on/you're aware of most things, thanks for the response. Looking forward to the engine update.

XXXandBEER

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 324
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2015, 07:28:05 pm »
Saving System: the design of the classic sheep tag pen is fundamentally flawed

Could you elaborate? By removing the pen you've taken away a lot of fundamental strategies and goals. You've also made defending dead sheep impossible for wolves.

I'd rather just see a bulldog style where when you're dead you're gone.

Chakra

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 279
    • View Profile
    • Chatcraft
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2015, 08:16:27 pm »
I 100% agree with Basis that the pen is a fundamental flaw to Sheep Tag and I have long argued such (and thus was one of the major reasons I preferred "Survival" mode on Bulldog over normal ST). I am not alone. Here's a thread from two years ago where Hawkys was trying to implement the same system as Basis. Here's another where Beer suggested removing saving on Shoop's behalf. I've also discussed the idea with Drew, but I'd need to reload my logs and don't want to bother. I seem to recall the idea popping up many, many times.

GosuSheep

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 13
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2015, 08:43:23 pm »
Another assumption I'd like to get rid of is that this sheep tag should be like the one that existed on w3. I think that assumption should be erased immediately.

We should not assume just because things are different from w3, that they are *impossible* or whatever. I think that although the w3 kids are good at that version, we have some learning to do on this version. For example, when wolves use the shade ability, you can easily avoid that shade by just keeping a little bit more distance from the wolf. That's easy as pie. You just have to get it in your head.

As far as other suggestions, I have some below. Please don't take these as criticisms. They are merely suggestions. I am not trying to say that you've done a poor job. I think the work you've done is far better than what I could have accomplished. I just am providing my thoughts, and if you think any of them could help, great. If not, that's fine too.

  • Add the name of the group to "Tips" section or the map loading screen. Could give folks higher chance of joining the channel
  • Add a note somewhere about rating the map. Could yield more ratings, which could yield more players.
  • You might want to put on Boots of Speed "Doesn't Stack". I saw a wolf with 2 boots.
  • I noticed the 350 cost claws are equivalent in damage to 3 of the 100 cost claws. You're essentially paying 50 extra gold for the convenience of having more item slots. I think if you've reached the point of filling your item slots, you either (1) are way ahead and probably deserve to win because you played well or (2) you are way behind and need as much help as you can get. I think it could make sense to make the 60 damage claws cost LESS than 300, not more.
  • Some suggestions for map control / camping
    • Add a permanent golem that you could use for camping
    • Add a "camper" minion that has to be within a certain distance of spirits (they have stun abilities anyway)
    • Make wards have a smaller cooldown and larger vision
    • Make spirits require multiple hits or require that *each* sheep be attacked to be rescued (instead of mass save)
    • Show vision of a sheep when they're in a certain range of a spirit.
    • Add a teleportation ability that allows wolves to, after a 5 or 10 second delay, teleport anywhere on the map. This teleportation is shown on the screen so sheep know it's coming, but at least wolves could have a better option if a spirit is across map.
  • I believe that certain abilities are so much better than others, that an overhaul is necessary. For instance, Mirror Image and Golem, in my opinion, are required. Mirror Image not only can be used to block sheep from building (which was a necessity in high level play on w3), but IT CAN ALSO DO DAMAGE (50% of wolf). That's INSANELY good. Far Sight can show sight of a place, sure, but you can always send a Mirror Image to explore. Far Sight doesn't move. I think Image is so much better than Far Sight, you shouldn't even have 1 wolf get Far Sight in a game; all wolves should get Image. While I agree that having options is important, I think the options should be on par with how good Mirror Image is, and I just don't think the other abilities are there yet. Same thing with Golem. Golem provides a jumping option, a camping option, and an additional cutter. It's way better than increased speed or the other stuff that's in there. I can't remember all the stuff that is there right now, but I think having a discussion about ability overhaul (perhaps in game) would be a good use of time.
  • I think the gold reward system needs to be overhauled. Currently you get 10 gold for killing a tiny farm, 7 gold for killing a money farm, and 0 gold for killing a farm or a sheep. I don't think the gold-to-farm-value adds up. I think you should receive a reward for killing a sheep. If you want to prevent snowballing, perhaps you could make the reward based on how many sheep are left and maybe even how many wolves are playing. For instance, if you kill 1 sheep and there are 6 left, you probably need some help to kill those other sheep. If you kill a sheep and there is only 1 left, you probably don't need as much help.
  • As far as the team balancing goes, maybe if it's 6 sheep vs 1 wolf player and 2 AI wolves, maybe you could give the wolf better stuff. More gold, auto max level, super abilities. Something to account for the difficult of having no teammates.

In general, to summarize the above list, some topics to discuss and focus on could be:

  • Map Control / Camping / Saving
  • Team balancing
  • Advertising the game and the group
  • Items and Abilities
  • Updates to the engine to allow for easier sheep killing, better turn speeds for sheep, and other stuff people mentioned.

FaceOfMelinda

  • Runtag Supremo
  • *****
  • Posts: 363
    • View Profile
Re: Sheep Tag Rivals on Starcraft II
« Reply #29 on: December 16, 2015, 09:10:54 pm »
A lot of local Gosusheep drug lords weighing in but where are the sheep tag professors?

What does removing the pen achieve? How is gameplay improved? What is the goal?

I haven't played this map but this this sort of setup creates a gameplay where wolves are forced to purchase a golem (or its equivalent), place it on the dead sheep, and have it hold position until the end of time. Wolves are in effect punished for kills: "Great job Turbo12, now stay there until you can spend all your gold on a golem." This removes skill/mastery across several verticals.

Secondly - if the map is even remotely similar to WC3 Sheep Tag - you should be aiming for a sheep win rate of far below 10% given equivalent parameters (i.e., 20 minute time limit). Should go without saying and if not I'd strongly suggest trying out the WC3 version.

 

Recent Posts

YOoooo by Celestial_One
February 04, 2020, 04:05:05 pm

hey guys! by Celestial_One
January 01, 2020, 01:08:18 am

Re: Alive? by GothaWOLF
September 27, 2019, 08:23:15 am

Re: Alive? by Nmcdo
September 26, 2019, 06:20:18 pm

Alive? by GothaWOLF
September 26, 2019, 07:40:50 am

SUP GUYYYYSSSSSSSSS by Sheepdice
September 20, 2018, 02:56:42 am

Re: New Meat on SC2 by Wyvernrider
July 17, 2018, 07:07:48 pm

Re: CD Keys RoC or Frozen Throne? by Wyvernrider
July 17, 2018, 07:06:16 pm


Shoutbox

View Shout History