+-

Elder Scrolls


Author Topic: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.  (Read 473 times)

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2013, 01:34:32 am »
midas math is tricky as HELL. almost noone (including cele it seems) factors in opportunity cost. in other words, by not going midas (and getting a dagger/forcestaff/meka/whatever), you're increasing your earlygame potency. how do you figure that you're gonna be ahead lategame through a midas, when you could potentially achieve greater results lategame by dominating more earlygame? or a carry who's farming potential is increased though the alternatives to midas (bfury/yasha/threads/lothars etc). items like these increase your farming-speed, and midas delays these items and makes it more likely that you die if u get ganged.

the other problem is that 1900 gold earlygame is worth more than 1900 gold midgame. its worth even more than 1900 gold lategame. you're not really getting "free gold" right after you recoup the initial 1900 gold you spent on the midas.

third problem is risk assessment. consider the difference a meka can make in teamfights around min 15-20. getting teamwipes at this stage, imo, is worth more than an entire game of midas use. meka can be that difference between the two teams that clash.

another problem with midas is that people don't factor in the gold/experience you would have gotten by killing a creep manually instead of using midas on it. for instance, if a carry has midas and uses it on a enemy creep, he's not getting +190 gold on that entire creepwave. instead, hes getting 190-50 bonus gold on the creepwave, since he would have lasthit the creep if he didn't have midas. the same applies to the experience you gain. it's similar with jungle-creeps; you could have spent 2-3 seconds killing the creep instead of using midas on it. so the gold/xp gain is lower than what people use in their calculation.

there are so many problems in trying to calculate whether midas is worth it or not. i'd say it's more of a G4MBLE than anything, it might pay out and it might not. assuming that you're gonna be stronger if the game drags on, as explained, is a fallacy. a poor analogy would be assuming that you're always gonna be in a better position after 10 min of sheeptag if you invest in cashfarms, rather than investing in upgraded farms/auras early.

given all of this, can you give us a new evaluation of midas cele? :D
Edit: THE WORD G4MBLE IS CENSORED LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 01:36:50 am by Chiefhero[sks] »
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


Celestial_One

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #16 on: December 02, 2013, 02:58:03 am »
Quote
I don't go midas when my allies are losing like hell or I feel that I'll need to leave my lane to gank early on. If I don't go midas I generally go force, drums, or cyclone. Obviously this is assuming you are solo middle.
in context to midas invoker mid
Quote
When not to midas [on a support]:
1. When your team has good pushing potential, and their team has no response to early game pushing, because they went ricing builds
Quote
you aren't being forced to buy meka or drums early on

And in my later post, I was referring to the bonus xp on supports who are going to use their midas and go back to roaming, warding, or doing something useful, which typically means not hitting big creeps in the jungle. I don't always go midas on carries, especially if it looks like it won't pay off or if there is a chance of having insanely good influence with some other item. But not going to lie I get midas the vast majority of the time when I'm a carry, and I'm not ashamed to it. Sure it's a bit of a risk, but
Quote
If your team is relying on you to carry the game super early on [and you're not ursa or some snowball hero] and not giving you time to farm then they're not treating their carry very well, and are probably getting outplayed anyways.
In that case it really depends on the game, sometimes that drums or yasha (or whatever item you're trying to rush) will cause you to win, and sometimes your team comeback without you having to carry the game at 8 minutes. I think, for the most part, that at 5-6 minutes it's usually anyone's game, but if the difference between winning and losing is you not getting midas at 6-9 minutes, and rushing some other item then there is probably something bigger issue going on. There's obviously heroes that altogether probably shouldn't rush midas: ursa, lycan, sf... mainly heroes that require a large influence on the early game to be a really effective carry or have some other core item that they need to go first. Then there are heroes that are pretty much garbage without items, and benefit from the additional attack speed and levels greatly from midas more than most other heroes (easy lane sniper, void, carry slardar, prophet, doom, tiny).

Of course there is a risk when getting midas, but there's also a risk you take by buying meka, pipe, drums, even bots, and then not having the opportunity to use them very effectively over a large period of time.

Something you aren't even recognizing is the power that levels bring on lots of heroes. Sure meka can be the difference between a won and lost teamfight... so can a higher level ultimate.

Meka for sure is a great item early on, and you're exactly right to compare midas and meka, but as I said before, what if you're not solo support?

Math is a bit weird when it comes to midas, and no calculation is going to be perfect because there are going to be times when you die and it comes off cooldown, or times when you can't use midas safely etc. Some people are more efficient at using it, and it also can be used way differently. It's not something you can calculate to the tee. The only "calculations" I gave were for supports and invoker. The item is completely different on a carry than a support, because not only are you getting it at a different times, but you're also benefiting from the additional attack speed sooo much more, and you are probably using it differently as well. Such as a support might aim for big creeps for the xp, and a carry might aim for small creeps to increase his gpm more effectively.

Some other things you and I both skipped over: Midas can instantly kill some enemy summons like necronomicons (and you don't take dmg), wolves, boar, any dominated or chen/ench creep. So, not always, but sometimes it's not just a risk but a utility item as well.

In short, I never said there wasn't a downside to midas and that it should always be gotten, but, for me, it pays itself off more often than not.

Also, are you asking questions to troll/mock me, because it seems like you missed a lot of what I've already said, and you didn't respond to my first post to your questions. Idk what you expected me to say in response to your last post... maybe "wow amir I never even thought that u can buy midas and it be a bad and u can buy a different item instead" :D
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 04:09:04 am by Celestial_One »

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #17 on: December 02, 2013, 04:15:34 am »
Quote
Midas can instantly kill some enemy summons like necronomicons (and you don't take dmg)
this doesn't work now.

Quote
Also, are you asking questions to troll/mock me, because it seems like you missed a lot of what I've already said. Dunno, did you even read my response to your first questions lol
no. obviously i got my own answers to all of the questions in this thread. just trying to figure out if there is something i've overlooked that you can shed some light on. trying to expand my knowledge of the game :D



anyway, i'll summarize the questions if someone else wants to try answering:

1) How to assess whether it's better to go for midas, or go for meka/force/drums/etc? As carry, how to assess which is worth more; midas vs other items that increase your farm/gpm?

2) how do we calculate when the midas pays off? i've already mentioned 2 important factors that cele didn't include in his calculation (the worth of gold decreases over time, and a portion of the gold you gain from midas is gold you'd get without the midas too).

i've never heard fulfilling answers to these questions. people usually answer 1) by appealing to what pros do, and the answer to 2) is some half-assed calculation that excludes critical factors. usually it goes

190 gold*10 uses=1900 gold
10 uses*100 sec=16 minutes
therefore; you start earning gold after 16 minutes of having the midas!



another problem with the midas is the expected return. let's assume that:

1) you start being profitable 16 minutes after getting the midas (which is an overstatement).
2) you get midas at min 9.
3) games last 45 min.

after the 25 min mark, you'll start earning ~120 bonus gold per minute. this means that the expected return on the midas is ~2500 gold AT the 45 min mark. 800 extra gold if you sell the item right before the game ends.

is the extra 2500 gold at minute 45 worth postponing meka/forcestaff/yasha/drums early? or even postponing your core items by a portion of time? does the 2500 gold at min 45 make NEARLY as much impact on the game as 1900 gold at minute 9?

anyway, those are some of my thoughts/questions about the item :D BIG LICKS to anyone who's able to answer my questions/demonstrate why the item is worth getting without appealing to what pros do!
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


Celestial_One

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #18 on: December 02, 2013, 06:57:32 am »
Yee ofc I'll try my best to answer your questions, and since you've organized the questions all nice and pretty I can answer them to the best of my ability in the same organized fashion. LMK what you think ^^

Sorry if I repeat myself, but I think I have already, so what is the harm in doing it again and again?

And for the record I never once said that you should get midas because that's what the pro's are doing. I merely used that as support for its legitimacy, along with many other points you overlooked, and a few points I forgot to mention.

Quote
1) How to assess whether it's better to go for midas, or go for meka/force/drums/etc?

In order to get midas you have to look at a lot of factors. Here are some guidelines. Your team is controlling the pace of the game. What does this mean? It means you're the ones with the early lead, applying pressure, and making the enemy team react. This basically means your team has superior map control. Your potential lategame beats their potential lategame. This means that your way of winning the game later, whether due to superior teamfight, pushing, or just being able to manmode the fawk out of them *should* beat whatever the enemy team can throw at you lategame. They doesn't have a very effective ganking line-up, and their early game can be matched by yours. Your early pushing potential isn't that strong or they have a lot of ways to break your push, but your lategame push is significantly better. Pushing potential means your ability to safely, and effectively take down towers. It's important that you understand midas gives reliable gold. Reliable gold is so important since it's the only means of buyback, and by getting midas with any hero (support or carry), you're more likely to have the gold to buyback at any point in the game. You cannot lose reliable gold.

If the enemy team is focusing you down pretty hard, or you're unable to keep gold for a long period of time. This typically means you've died a lot, your farm is really bad, and you're not profiting much from early fights. It is usually better to get other survivability items such as bracer into drums, urn, force, or meka since these items are a lot easier to farm and are strongest early in the game. It's important to note that a support should never rush midas. Boots, wand, wards, smoke, tps, and additional regeneration for your lane/yourself are way too important early on as they have a massive influence on how the early game progresses.

Also, I don't think that midas is core on any hero, and I want to make sure you know that. Midas is situational, and you should never go into the game saying "I'm definitely going to get a midas this game".

If you're the only support on your team, then ditch any idea of getting a midas. If there are 2 supports on your team, and both of you are doing completely horrible, then ditch any idea of getting a midas, and focus on continuously warding/counterwarding, and getting survival/team items.

Quote
When to get midas as a carry?
Take into account most of the factors I mentioned in my first paragraph as far as team composition goes, but there are some other things worth mentioning. Is it possible for your team to hold out until you can finish your first or second core item? Can you get midas relatively early (4-7 minutes)? Is your hero capable of functioning in lane even without some alternatives such as treads and wand? If the enemy team doesn't go any midas, and goes for early pushing can your team realistically stop the pushes without suffering large losses? Is there some other item you should be working towards in order to maximize your hero's potential? Does your hero already have a way to flash farm, and can your gpm/xpm be significantly higher if you go a different item? Answer all these questions to yourself, and then make your decision on whether to get a midas. There is no golden-rule, or standard, that says "if x, then get midas". It's a risk. Sometimes it pays off immensely, and sometimes not at all.

Quote
2) how do we calculate when the midas pays off? i've already mentioned 2 important factors that cele didn't include in his calculation (the worth of gold decreases over time, and a portion of the gold you gain from midas is gold you'd get without the midas too).

As I said before you can't perfectly calculate it... though I'll expand on why I gave the calculations that I did. Firstly, how can you calculate the value of experience vs gold in any given game? How do you compare a bracer to an additional level in some ability? If you can answer that to me, then I can completely answer the question. Not only this, but if we're taking into account gold depreciation, then we'd come up with a different time everygame, because each game has different gold generations. So, if you're looking for a set time it pays itself off, you'll never get it.

It's important to note that midas gives 100% reliable gold, meaning it doesn't go away when you die. So it can potentially "give" you more gold than meets the eye. You can die 3 times in a row with a bunch of midas gold and not lose a penny. The only calculations I gave were how midas pays itself off completely in gold assuming they, not taking into account gold-depreciation, and the estimated bonus experience that heroes who aren't jungling get. And it's probably closer to 18-19 minutes to pay itself gold-wise, but with the other benefits it brings it is probably much faster, though virtually impossible to assign values to the other benefits aside from the attack speed bonus (~1k when compared to hyperstone or gloves).

You mentioned something about how I didn't take into account the gold you'd get from the creep if you killed it anyways, but I don't really consider that a valid point since it's not like you have to kill the creep from full hp and THEN you get the 190 gold. No, you get the gold instantly, and you can spend time farming another camp instead. Not only this, but you may even be able to farm faster or take less damage, effectively, by using the midas on the big neutrals since many big giving auras. Not to mention the times when you can't stay and farm the entire camp due to low hp, no lifesteal, or it's unsafe to stay longer than a moment to use the midas. Something else that should be accounted for is that it can also be used to deny the other team gold and experience if you're using it in their jungle, and not clearing the small creeps, and kill enemy-controlled creeps in a teamfight.

Scenario:

Quote
1) you start being profitable 16 minutes after getting the midas (which is an overstatement).
2) you get midas at min 9.
3) games last 45 min.

after the 25 min mark, you'll start earning ~120 bonus gold per minute. this means that the expected return on the midas is ~2500 gold AT the 45 min mark. 800 extra gold if you sell the item right before the game ends.

is the extra 2500 gold at minute 45 worth postponing meka/forcestaff/yasha/drums early? or even postponing your core items by a portion of time? does the 2500 gold at min 45 make NEARLY as much impact on the game as 1900 gold at minute 9?

anyway, those are some of my thoughts/questions about the item :D BIG LICKS to anyone who's able to answer my questions/demonstrate why the item is worth getting without appealing to what pros do!

To answer your first question, probably no the extra 2500 (or 3450) gold at minute 45 isn't worth postponing those items, and 2500 gold doesn't make anywhere near as close of an impact later in the game as early in the game. Those answer should be pretty obvious, and a complete waste of my time answering since you already knew that. However midas isn't just about the gold you get, but rather the gold you save from it (it gives reliable gold), the additional experience, the attack speed, and you can get midas gold and experience even after buying back. Just like the point you made gold isn't worth as much later in the game, the same argument holds for experience. Midas gives a more or less fixed income to both of these, and is the only item in the game to do so, and that is why it can be a very powerful item when gotten appropriately. In your scenario, that's also 2500 gold that you can never lose by dying, something important to note!

Gimme de nasty ass lick yoooo
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 07:47:16 am by Celestial_One »

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #19 on: December 02, 2013, 09:29:07 am »
nice post cele. i'd normally tap you on the head and say "tatta' boy :)" and leave the thread, but here are some questions based on your post, for the sake of keeping the information flowing. im not trying to frustrate you or dissagree with you, just wanna get more insight. i hope you dont mind :D


Quote
Your team is controlling the pace of the game. What does this mean? It means you're the ones with the early lead, applying pressure, and making the enemy team react. This basically means your team has superior map control.
wouldn't it be better to capitalize on the advantage you got in such a scenario (and try to dominate/end early), rather than reducing your advantage by getting items that payoff long-term, as it gives the enemies a window of opportunity to catch up?


Quote
Your potential lategame beats their potential lategame. This means that your way of winning the game later, whether due to superior teamfight, pushing, or just being able to manmode the fawk out of them *should* beat whatever the enemy team can throw at you lategame.

this commonly (although not necessarily) means that your early/mid game is weaker than the opponents, as you probably have 1-2 or more heroes that are very item-dependant. wouldn't you be putting yourself at an even bigger disadvantage by getting midas in such a situation, rather than rushing survivability/core items on the heroes that need these items to function? in other words, you're increasing the likelyhood of getting bulldozed before it reaches lategame by investing in midases, when your team needs certain items to function.

for instance if you're spectre, and the enemy team has 0 carries. it's almost guaranteed victory if it reaches lategame and you got your items. but since the enemy don't have carries, they have early/mid-game oriented heroes. should i get midas on my spec, and pray that my team can fight them back 4v5? or should i go straight into survivability/dmg, for instance vanguard into radience or something along those lines, so i can contribute to the team as soon as possible?


Quote
If the enemy team is focusing you down pretty hard, or you're unable to keep gold for a long period of time. This typically means you've died a lot, your farm is really bad, and you're not profiting much from early fights. It is usually better to get other survivability items such as bracer into drums, urn, force, or meka since these items are a lot easier to farm and are strongest early in the game.
Isn't this a scenario where you should get midas, given the reliable gold it provides? if you're dying constantly, you're likely losing the gold you farm up, whereas a midas would put the gold safely in your bank. i thought reliable gold was one of the biggest reasons to get the midas, but why would reliable gold matter in a game where you're not dying/losing gold, and you're farming just fine?



to summarize my claims:
1) sometimes good to skip midas if your team is controlling the show and you're already ahead
2) sometimes good to skip midas if your team is stronger lategame (assuming that this means the enemy is stronger early/midgame)
3) sometimes good to get midas when you're behind and can't farm properly, as a ''catch-up'' tool.

are these claims true?

and if the claims are true, given the uncertain nature of dota games, doesn't it mean that you can never know whether it will be good to get midas or not, regardless of what situation you're in?

and if THAT is true, it means that we can't assess whether it's better to go for midas or for meka? in other words, it's a G4MBLE of hell, and we have no rational basis for getting midas other than copying what pros currently do in pro games :D

keep the legend answers flowing cele!
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 06:36:43 pm by Celestial_One »
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


I_think_I_own

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #20 on: December 02, 2013, 09:59:37 am »

Also I have a question for you guys, do you think that winrate reflects skill, or can winrate be increased by taking advantage of the system somehow? A solo queue player with 52% win can be just as good as someone with 65% win who generally only plays 5 mans or party, yes or no?
I only know 2 ways how people cheated or took advantage of the system in order to get a higher win rate:
-Party with a friend who is in low priority = you play against noobs and it's easy wins; the game still counts towards your stats
-Early abandonment. theres no consequence for early abandon. the game won't count, and you won't receive an abandon on your stats. This is commonly used to dodge stacks and pro players.

Anyways win rate is just based on how much you stack. However i've seen some people stack a lot with their friends and have low 50% win rates (koala). So when i say stack, i mean stacking with good players. so i'd say win rate doesn't entirely reflect your skill, but it still has a meaning. it's just a representation to give an idea of how good of a player you are. like you can't get a 60% win rate with 1.5k games like me if you're a bad player AND stack with good players because it'll match you against pros or players of equal skill level.

Im actually surprised ive maintained 60% win rate for quite a while now. The only good players i stack with are mostly divine/highsenberg...the rest of the ppl i party with are just sub par players. been facing a lot of stacks and pros too. Just recently beat 1437/Eternalenvy and merlini http://dotabuff.com/matches/405714609
http://dotabuff.com/matches/404348452
gg

also!! check out this new site called mydotaskill.com which tells you where your skill level is at compared to others. I have no clue how they determine the rating but apparently it's the new **** that everyones been talking about lol. Im top 3% rank = 1490
http://mydotaskill.com/index.php?id=http%3A%2F%2Fdotabuff.com%2Fplayers%2F121029852

koala

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 119
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2013, 10:17:28 am »
I think it depends on your overall strategy and how the game is progressing. Every game is different hence getting midas being very situational. I would say get a midas if you are confident in your lineup, lanes are stable and feel it's going to rather late. The rationable behind midas being the pressure is on the opposite to make something happen or you are going to come out ahead on gold and XP. You also need to be prepared to give up a few side lane tier 1 towers if they hard press you while you are trying to stall out for the midas to kick in. This is against good teams anyway who might try and punish getting midas on X hero.

Otherwise the safe lane farmer/1 position should get items that can help the team early on and allow you to 5 man or split push down the outer towers. Midas is a passive item as you well know it doesn't add much early on only some attack speed but does pay for itself eventually plus give you decent levels. Take lifestealer for example, if you are getting safe lane farm you could get an early midas then into core of phase/drums/armlet/whatever or you can just skip the midas and go straight for the active items and be looking for 5 man fights or maybe just a pick off into a pushing opportunity.

That's also a lot of crap Itio lol.. still a moron I see. I prefer to judge people on their gameplay not winrate anyway. As I did with Itio, a kid massively overrates himself because he can match pros and sometimes beat them in matchmaking. Maybe make a team and try beat them in an EIZO cup.. sit down.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 10:26:58 am by koala »

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2013, 10:50:16 am »
it's quite clear that winrate/elo/tsr/kdr etc are meaningless if you can manipulate them. in my mind = it's obvious that winrate on dota2 can be manipulated, mainly though stacking.

in theory => you should be facing equally good opponents, regardless of whether you roll solo or stack. sadly reality doesn't correspond with theory ^^

for instance DENDI has 55% winrate over like 3000 games. i have IDIOT friends who have higher winrate than dendi. i also have really good friends with lower than ~52% winrate. this makes no sense if we assume that winrate reflects skill. and these are not isolated instances, there are a shitload of rly bad players who have 55+% winrate, and there is a shitload of good players who sit on lower percentages.

i wouldn't even say that winrate is "a good guideline for comparing skill". in extreme cases, where you compare a 65% winrate vs 40% winrate, you can safely establish who's better. anything beyond that is farfetched, 65% vs 60%, or 53% vs 58%.



I think the explenation is 1) that the matchmaking system isn't perfect, and you don't meet players of equal skill, hence why it's easier to win if u got good friends.

but also 2), that people who stack have a fundamental advantage over people who don't stack, even if all the individuals are identically skilled. this is because people who stack know eachother, so they know how everyone plays, what strenghts/weaknesses their team has, they usually trust eachother more, they have defined roles for each person, they might try harder than if they were alone (to avoid making their friends mad if they play bad), and so on. these are elements that could be a massive difference between two teams of equally, individually, skilled players.

so yeah, conclusion: obviously winrate doesn't reflect skill. we know this because of the available data (pro players have less winrate than katshuma, litterally), we know this based on our own experiences (it IS easier to win if u play with good players), and we know this based on logic (players that stack will inevitably have higher winrates than those who do not, because of advantages that come through stacking, even if we assume all players are equally skilled).
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


Celestial_One

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2013, 06:44:46 pm »
There's more than one way to win a game. Sometimes that means pressing your advantage and pushing, and sometimes that means increasing your advantage by farming and controlling the map. Midas is the sort of item that makes the enemy team react. If they don't react and try to break you when you have midas, then you're going to have better farm. If you're against heroes like earthshake, kotl, and teams that are exceptional at defending base with absolutely trash items, then it can make sense to just wait until you have the items to break base safely. Obviously if the advantage is absurdly high you can press the case even against those sorts of teams, but a lot of the time I notice that when you're trying to push rax early on, and the advantage isn't big enough, it can fail miserably and that's how they comeback.

Again, I wouldn't go midas if I don't think my team (including myself) can handle the pressure of being 1 item behind their carry. You're absolutely right... midas can definitely put you at a disadvantage, but some teams are more suited to "hold out" until the lategame (or midgame). Not every team is built to reach victory fast, and sometimes having the early advantage means having a couple more kills, but a lot more farm, and enabling yourself to outfarm the enemy. If you have a killing spree at 6 minutes, you're the hard carry, and you have freefarm you don't necessarily have to build your core items right away in order to effectively carry the game. Most of the time early-game it isn't even about what items you're going, but how you're functioning as a team.

Quote
for instance if you're spectre, and the enemy team has 0 carries. it's almost guaranteed victory if it reaches lategame and you got your items. but since the enemy don't have carries, they have early/mid-game oriented heroes. should i get midas on my spec, and pray that my team can fight them back 4v5? or should i go straight into survivability/dmg, for instance vanguard into radience or something along those lines, so i can contribute to the team as soon as possible?

I'm not going to say that you should or shouldn't get midas, because it's really hard to tell without knowing all the specifics of the game. Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't. Are you winning more early on than you should be? Have your opponents made a lot of errors, and given you and your allies a lot more room and map control? Is your farm absurd, and does it make more sense to rush radiance rather than delaying it for an additional 5-6 minutes? Honestly, I rarely go midas on spec as she either needs to go vanguard/drums into radiance/diffusal if she wants to have any usefulness in the midgame. She already takes a long time to hit a certain level of usefulness, and by going midas you're going to delay that even further. Heroes like naix, od, bear (etc) are pretty strong at any point of the game, including early game, even if they go midas. I dunno it seems that you think going midas makes your hero useless, but that's not the case at all. You can still go midas, and still put pressure on the enemy team by ganking and pushing and making trades. You don't necessarily have to afk farm if you go midas. That's not to say you can't go midas on spec and have it be successful, but it's all relative. I can't give you any sure answers without knowing the exact state of the game at whatever time you're thinking of getting the midas.


Quote
If the enemy team is focusing you down pretty hard, or you're unable to keep gold for a long period of time. This typically means you've died a lot, your farm is really bad, and you're not profiting much from early fights. It is usually better to get other survivability items such as bracer into drums, urn, force, or meka since these items are a lot easier to farm and are strongest early in the game.

It's immediate threat vs distant future threat. The immediate threat of losing is higher than the distant future threat, and thus you might need survival items, and items that are most effective in the here and now whereas if your team is doing really well, you have ways to cope with early push and gank, and you have a nice early lead, and dragging the game out increases the effectiveness of your team's capabilities, then maybe it's better to go midas since the future threat of losing is higher than the immediate threat of losing.


Quote
to summarize my claims:
1) sometimes good to skip midas if your team is controlling the show and you're already ahead
2) sometimes good to skip midas if your team is stronger lategame (assuming that this means the enemy is stronger early/midgame)
3) sometimes good to get midas when you're behind and can't farm properly, as a ''catch-up'' tool.

are these claims true?

They're all situational, and I can't strongly state true for any single claim.


Quote
and if the claims are true, given the uncertain nature of dota games, doesn't it mean that you can never know whether it will be good to get midas or not, regardless of what situation you're in?

No, you can know if getting a midas is a good or bad idea if you thoroughly assess the game's current state, and answer those many questions I earlier posted. Though that doesn't mean some midases are riskier than others. Just because midas is a risky item doesn't mean it can't be a calculated, good-natured risk. I'm not really sure what you're trying to get at here, amir. Do you think midas is never a good item to get?

Also, where have I once alluded that you should get midas because the pros are doing it? Do you think it's a good idea to only do what you see from pro teams? I hope not, lol. Watching pro teams can give you new ideas, since they're the ones bringing in and testing newer theories at the highest level of gameplay. If pro teams are going midas, and they're being incredibly successful, that doesn't necessarily mean they're correct, but maybe, just maybe they're onto something.

Also, fpr the winrate discussion... I play with people I know in person, who can be pretty ****in bad, and they ONLY play with me and have a higher rating than me on that site. Funny how that works. What do you guys suggest I do to try to get a more accurate rating? Play on a different account, alone? Play only in a 5 man with good players? My winrate is trashed because I play with real-life friends, but I know I play better than my rating would indicate, because I play inhouses all the time with this kid "alex" and his friends who are way higher rated than me (ie 55% winrate+, top 80% at least) and mop the floor with them a lot of the time.

How does one get into the pro-scene anyways? Surely playing pubs isn't going to get you in, no matter what your winrate is and how many pub games you win. I want to play pro, but I have 0 clue how to get into that scene. Should I start playing leagues like ixdl? What's the deal?
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 07:09:24 pm by Celestial_One »

SamLowe

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 50
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2013, 07:33:35 pm »
1) Which 5 heroes would you consider the absolutely best and which 5 heroes would you consider the absolutely worst to pick in todays pro-level games?

2) Also why is Void or Mortred never picked in pro games? It seems like these 2 are by far the heaviest carries and they both have escape mechanisms and mortred has his dagger so they shouldn't be too easy to shut down? Why do pros rather babysit some half-good carry like Alchemist throughout the game instead of one of these BEASTS? They also got some midgame potentional with a legendary ulti for void and atleast mortred can do sick dmg early on so it's not like they are useless for 40 min of the game.


I_think_I_own

  • Baby Runtagger
  • *
  • Posts: 18
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #25 on: December 03, 2013, 08:22:07 am »

That's also a lot of crap Itio lol.. still a moron I see. I prefer to judge people on their gameplay not winrate anyway. As I did with Itio, a kid massively overrates himself because he can match pros and sometimes beat them in matchmaking. Maybe make a team and try beat them in an EIZO cup.. sit down.
koala lol, you need to stop hating on me and need to accept the fact that im a great player. anyways you wouldn't stand a chance against winning a pro player unless they're solo queueing and get 4 retards on their team. You showed like 12 links of getting matched with pro players and u won 1/12 of them ROFL


2) Also why is Void or Mortred never picked in pro games? It seems like these 2 are by far the heaviest carries and they both have escape mechanisms and mortred has his dagger so they shouldn't be too easy to shut down? Why do pros rather babysit some half-good carry like Alchemist throughout the game instead of one of these BEASTS? They also got some midgame potentional with a legendary ulti for void and atleast mortred can do sick dmg early on so it's not like they are useless for 40 min of the game.


voids just an ass hero overall. he would get raped against any aggro tri lane even with 2 supports supporting him. he's not like antimage where, when you lose the laning phase he could just farm his battlefury and get back into the game. Not to mention his chrono needs to be perfectly landed and can potentially kill teammates if caught in the chrono. Mortred is just a worse version of antimage i guess. I remember one game i was free farming with mortred and i still couldn't do jack **** with the hero. Like after my bkb was done i would just instantly die and it was a disaster 0.0 I even remember that game too, if i was any other carry like antimage the game would of been won for us. Antimage > mortred


How does one get into the pro-scene anyways? Surely playing pubs isn't going to get you in, no matter what your winrate is and how many pub games you win. I want to play pro, but I have 0 clue how to get into that scene. Should I start playing leagues like ixdl? What's the deal?
I think it's mostly on having connections and proving to others that you're a good player. if you're really serious about going pro then you should read eternalenvy's blog on his experience on becoming a pro player. it takes a **** load of dedication to go pro. Practice at least 8 hours a day watch replays constantly etc http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=385238

Chiefhero[sks]

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 165
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #26 on: December 03, 2013, 08:53:59 am »
i followed the pro scene religiously before (which i haven't done in about 2 years now). Here are my theories, but itio/cele/adam might be able to answer these better than me now.

Quote
1) Which 5 heroes would you consider the absolutely best and which 5 heroes would you consider the absolutely worst to pick in todays pro-level games?
this is sort of a retarded question, its like asking what dribble is the absolutely best in football; it's unanswerable. but i'll try to give an answer ^^ based on what heroes are most usefull in the most scenarios.

Gyrocopter, naix, chen, visage, destroyer are the best 5.

reasoning: gyro and naix because unlike most other carries, they get extremely useful extremely fast(contribute alot), as well as being able to match traditional carries in super lategame. gyro is good early because of his spells, and he's good lategame because his damage is multiplied across several targets, so he can deal more nettdmg than most other carries (although not as strong in 1on1). Naix is good early because he gets psuedo-bkb for free(core item on almost all carries), and he's strong lategame because he got free non-orb lifesteal (core element of most carries), as well as dealing percent based dmg (people have more HP lategame).

destroyer is good because hes almost guaranteed to win the midlane in terms of CS, he's an insane good DPS carry, and he has aoe/psuedo-disable that makes him good early/midgame (doesn't need much farm to be effective).

visage and chen are just 2 supports that i imagine work really well in any form of lineup. they seem less situational than most other support-heroes. naga came close as well.

summary; these 5 heroes work very well in almost any lineup/against almost any composition of enemy heroes.



worst heroes: who cares. maybe meepo, leoric, riki, sniper, bloodseeker. this question would be easier 2 months ago, i would say brood, veno, etc (but they got buffed/re-worked now, so hard to evaluate).

Quote
2) Also why is Void or Mortred never picked in pro games? It seems like these 2 are by far the heaviest carries and they both have escape mechanisms and mortred has his dagger so they shouldn't be too easy to shut down? Why do pros rather babysit some half-good carry like Alchemist throughout the game instead of one of these BEASTS? They also got some midgame potentional with a legendary ulti for void and atleast mortred can do sick dmg early on so it's not like they are useless for 40 min of the game.
one of the more important aspects of a carry is his ability to farm(and farm fast), rather than how strong he gets if he's able to farm. this is why antimage/sf was so popular, and medusa/mort aren't, even though medusa and mort are likely stronger with full items.

mort and void are just generally hard to farm with. they're melee, so they can get harrased easily without babysitting from supports (which means other lanes will get less support), and they need to rush BKB to function (which means they won't get bfury or other items that help them farm for quite some time).

they also need too much farm.

people tend to pick carries who either don't need 20k gold to contribute(naix/copter), or carries that farm 20k gold really fast(old alche/am, sf).

Quote
How does one get into the pro-scene anyways? Surely playing pubs isn't going to get you in, no matter what your winrate is and how many pub games you win. I want to play pro, but I have 0 clue how to get into that scene. Should I start playing leagues like ixdl? What's the deal?
i think itio described it pretty well. the obvious answer is that you need to be a good player (practice and keep up with meta theories). but when you got that covered, it probably has alot to do with luck (finding a team that got an extra slot, or finding 4 really good players that aren't already in teams), as well as connections (pro teams need to know that you exist if they're going to consider putting you in their team.)

edit: dp, put posts together-cele

and lastly, ofc itio are a good player.

i got 2 BIG**** questions that haven't been brought up yet :D these are more BRAIN oriented than experience/dota knowledge oriented. i expect enstek to bring theories on these 2.

1) Which side has the advantage, sentinel or scourge (radiant or dire)? The map layout isn't mirrored, rosh positioning being the most obvious example. So what side has the advantage?

2) How can we balance the map so that neither side gets an advantage? assume that mirroring the two sides isn't an option. we want specific ideas (move rosh to X, remove the hill at Y, put more trees on Z, etc)
« Last Edit: December 03, 2013, 08:35:06 pm by Celestial_One »
"Sometimes Amir takes a deep breath and closes his eyes when he dota. That is when **** is getting real. He no longer plays dota, he feels dota, he IS dota." - Enstek


Exa

  • Backbuilder
  • ***
  • Posts: 52
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #27 on: December 13, 2013, 06:33:12 am »
1: What is the most interesting/exceptional spell in the game according to you?
2: What non-ultimate spell would you say is the BEST in the game (don't consider the hero it's on just the spell by itself)
3: What four spells would you combine if your objective was to make the most dominant hero with the highest winrate?
4: Is there any heroe(s) that only work in competitive/public games and why?
5: What hero requires the most skill to play properly? (apart from the obvious ones invoker, pudge, potm, geom)
6: What's the most common and devastating mistake people make?
« Last Edit: December 13, 2013, 06:41:50 am by Exa »

Celestial_One

  • Legend
  • ****
  • Posts: 217
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #28 on: December 15, 2013, 04:21:08 pm »
1: What is the most interesting/exceptional spell in the game according to you?
invoke is by far the most interesting ability imo ^^

2: What non-ultimate spell would you say is the BEST in the game (don't consider the hero it's on just the spell by itself)?
holy persuasion

3: What four spells would you combine if your objective was to make the most dominant hero with the highest winrate?
IDK I'd have to think about this for a while, and I'll get back with you.

4: Is there any heroe(s) that only work in competitive/public games and why?
yeah I don't see sniper, pa, void, and huskar in competitive play because they're easily countered and raped with good coordination, and in public games it's rare to see chen work out well because he falls off so quickly, and the only way to make up for that is high amounts of coordination from the start of the game leading towards a quick victory.

5: What hero requires the most skill to play properly? (apart from the obvious ones invoker, pudge, potm, geom)
chen

6: What's the most common and devastating mistake people make?
Picking carries instead of supports. Or picking supports and trying to carry.

HaWkys

  • Masser Deluxe
  • *******
  • Posts: 740
  • NMCDO = biggest clown
    • View Profile
Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #29 on: December 15, 2013, 05:02:26 pm »
If I have a hero that has critical strike chance, is it good if I make Buriza?

 

Recent Posts

Re: Alive? by GothaWOLF
September 27, 2019, 08:23:15 am

Re: Alive? by Nmcdo
September 26, 2019, 06:20:18 pm

Alive? by GothaWOLF
September 26, 2019, 07:40:50 am

SUP GUYYYYSSSSSSSSS by Sheepdice
September 20, 2018, 02:56:42 am

Re: New Meat on SC2 by Wyvernrider
July 17, 2018, 07:07:48 pm

Re: CD Keys RoC or Frozen Throne? by Wyvernrider
July 17, 2018, 07:06:16 pm

Re: New Meat on SC2 by Nmcdo
July 05, 2018, 04:27:04 pm

Re: New Meat on SC2 by Riziy
July 02, 2018, 08:10:24 pm


Shoutbox

View Shout History