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Author Topic: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.  (Read 652 times)

Celestial_One

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Re: Cele's Everything About Dota Thread.
« Reply #15 on: December 02, 2013, 06:57:32 am »
Yee ofc I'll try my best to answer your questions, and since you've organized the questions all nice and pretty I can answer them to the best of my ability in the same organized fashion. LMK what you think ^^

Sorry if I repeat myself, but I think I have already, so what is the harm in doing it again and again?

And for the record I never once said that you should get midas because that's what the pro's are doing. I merely used that as support for its legitimacy, along with many other points you overlooked, and a few points I forgot to mention.

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1) How to assess whether it's better to go for midas, or go for meka/force/drums/etc?

In order to get midas you have to look at a lot of factors. Here are some guidelines. Your team is controlling the pace of the game. What does this mean? It means you're the ones with the early lead, applying pressure, and making the enemy team react. This basically means your team has superior map control. Your potential lategame beats their potential lategame. This means that your way of winning the game later, whether due to superior teamfight, pushing, or just being able to manmode the fawk out of them *should* beat whatever the enemy team can throw at you lategame. They doesn't have a very effective ganking line-up, and their early game can be matched by yours. Your early pushing potential isn't that strong or they have a lot of ways to break your push, but your lategame push is significantly better. Pushing potential means your ability to safely, and effectively take down towers. It's important that you understand midas gives reliable gold. Reliable gold is so important since it's the only means of buyback, and by getting midas with any hero (support or carry), you're more likely to have the gold to buyback at any point in the game. You cannot lose reliable gold.

If the enemy team is focusing you down pretty hard, or you're unable to keep gold for a long period of time. This typically means you've died a lot, your farm is really bad, and you're not profiting much from early fights. It is usually better to get other survivability items such as bracer into drums, urn, force, or meka since these items are a lot easier to farm and are strongest early in the game. It's important to note that a support should never rush midas. Boots, wand, wards, smoke, tps, and additional regeneration for your lane/yourself are way too important early on as they have a massive influence on how the early game progresses.

Also, I don't think that midas is core on any hero, and I want to make sure you know that. Midas is situational, and you should never go into the game saying "I'm definitely going to get a midas this game".

If you're the only support on your team, then ditch any idea of getting a midas. If there are 2 supports on your team, and both of you are doing completely horrible, then ditch any idea of getting a midas, and focus on continuously warding/counterwarding, and getting survival/team items.

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When to get midas as a carry?
Take into account most of the factors I mentioned in my first paragraph as far as team composition goes, but there are some other things worth mentioning. Is it possible for your team to hold out until you can finish your first or second core item? Can you get midas relatively early (4-7 minutes)? Is your hero capable of functioning in lane even without some alternatives such as treads and wand? If the enemy team doesn't go any midas, and goes for early pushing can your team realistically stop the pushes without suffering large losses? Is there some other item you should be working towards in order to maximize your hero's potential? Does your hero already have a way to flash farm, and can your gpm/xpm be significantly higher if you go a different item? Answer all these questions to yourself, and then make your decision on whether to get a midas. There is no golden-rule, or standard, that says "if x, then get midas". It's a risk. Sometimes it pays off immensely, and sometimes not at all.

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2) how do we calculate when the midas pays off? i've already mentioned 2 important factors that cele didn't include in his calculation (the worth of gold decreases over time, and a portion of the gold you gain from midas is gold you'd get without the midas too).

As I said before you can't perfectly calculate it... though I'll expand on why I gave the calculations that I did. Firstly, how can you calculate the value of experience vs gold in any given game? How do you compare a bracer to an additional level in some ability? If you can answer that to me, then I can completely answer the question. Not only this, but if we're taking into account gold depreciation, then we'd come up with a different time everygame, because each game has different gold generations. So, if you're looking for a set time it pays itself off, you'll never get it.

It's important to note that midas gives 100% reliable gold, meaning it doesn't go away when you die. So it can potentially "give" you more gold than meets the eye. You can die 3 times in a row with a bunch of midas gold and not lose a penny. The only calculations I gave were how midas pays itself off completely in gold assuming they, not taking into account gold-depreciation, and the estimated bonus experience that heroes who aren't jungling get. And it's probably closer to 18-19 minutes to pay itself gold-wise, but with the other benefits it brings it is probably much faster, though virtually impossible to assign values to the other benefits aside from the attack speed bonus (~1k when compared to hyperstone or gloves).

You mentioned something about how I didn't take into account the gold you'd get from the creep if you killed it anyways, but I don't really consider that a valid point since it's not like you have to kill the creep from full hp and THEN you get the 190 gold. No, you get the gold instantly, and you can spend time farming another camp instead. Not only this, but you may even be able to farm faster or take less damage, effectively, by using the midas on the big neutrals since many big giving auras. Not to mention the times when you can't stay and farm the entire camp due to low hp, no lifesteal, or it's unsafe to stay longer than a moment to use the midas. Something else that should be accounted for is that it can also be used to deny the other team gold and experience if you're using it in their jungle, and not clearing the small creeps, and kill enemy-controlled creeps in a teamfight.

Scenario:

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1) you start being profitable 16 minutes after getting the midas (which is an overstatement).
2) you get midas at min 9.
3) games last 45 min.

after the 25 min mark, you'll start earning ~120 bonus gold per minute. this means that the expected return on the midas is ~2500 gold AT the 45 min mark. 800 extra gold if you sell the item right before the game ends.

is the extra 2500 gold at minute 45 worth postponing meka/forcestaff/yasha/drums early? or even postponing your core items by a portion of time? does the 2500 gold at min 45 make NEARLY as much impact on the game as 1900 gold at minute 9?

anyway, those are some of my thoughts/questions about the item :D BIG LICKS to anyone who's able to answer my questions/demonstrate why the item is worth getting without appealing to what pros do!

To answer your first question, probably no the extra 2500 (or 3450) gold at minute 45 isn't worth postponing those items, and 2500 gold doesn't make anywhere near as close of an impact later in the game as early in the game. Those answer should be pretty obvious, and a complete waste of my time answering since you already knew that. However midas isn't just about the gold you get, but rather the gold you save from it (it gives reliable gold), the additional experience, the attack speed, and you can get midas gold and experience even after buying back. Just like the point you made gold isn't worth as much later in the game, the same argument holds for experience. Midas gives a more or less fixed income to both of these, and is the only item in the game to do so, and that is why it can be a very powerful item when gotten appropriately. In your scenario, that's also 2500 gold that you can never lose by dying, something important to note!

Gimme de nasty ass lick yoooo
« Last Edit: December 02, 2013, 07:47:16 am by Celestial_One »

 

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