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Author Topic: Moral beliefs  (Read 556 times)

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2014, 05:00:59 am »
So how is it against reason or logic to want self-fulfillment? What else is there to want?

XXXandBEER

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2014, 06:37:17 am »
There is nothing logical about self-fulfillment there is no rhyme or reason you do what you want to do to achieve self-fulfillment no matter how irrational it may be. Hitler killed millions for self-fulfillment clearly irrational to do that still achieved his self-fulfillment. Therefore there is nothing rational about self-fulfillment.

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #17 on: June 20, 2014, 07:24:13 am »
Yeah, you don't know what rational means.

Edit: Decided I'd explain.

As you defined, rationality tends to mean the application of reason and logic. But this just gives us two more terms. Logic is easy: you take a given set of rules, apply these rules to premises, and you arrive at conclusions. Reasoning is the use of logic to arrive at explanations for things.

Beer's prime critique is that there is no "reason" or "logic" to placing self-fulfillment as my goal. This is, simply, flat out silly, given how I contextualized my argument. I started out by denying any objective or metaphysical truth. This means that there is no answer to silly questions like "What is the meaning of our existence?" Such questions, within the logic of a lack of truth, are absurd.

Instead, when we lack an objective truth, we suggest things we think may work, then argue whether it is consistent or if it somehow lacks something. Even then, unless there is a strong moral argument against the slightly false idea, we can continue using it if it's the best standing one. I am trying to suggest the modus operandi of individuals and society.

So you can either attack the concept of truthlessness or you can argue against the consistency of placing self-fulfillment as the single shared goal of sentient creatures, but the latter requires you to accept there is no objective truth, thus no ultimate rationality. Thus, to get anywhere, one must argue why something is irrational, not why something is rational (and lo and behold, we arrive at the same process of science!).

So my argument assumes the following arguments:
  • We exist.
  • We have motivations.
  • We gain something by pushing and achieving our motivations.
  • We, universally, share nothing else beyond points 1-3.
  • Thus the only goal all individuals share is that of motivations and gains of pushing and achieving these motivations: self-fulfillment.
  • As this is the only shared goal of all individuals, the goal of a society should be oriented towards individual fulfillment.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2014, 08:00:31 am by Chakra »

SHEePYTaGGeRNeP

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #18 on: June 20, 2014, 09:30:58 am »
Great post Chakra.
I agree with you on the statement that everyone's goal is self-fullfillment.
However BEERs example of Hitler is interesting.

Chakra elaborate your thoughts about being rational for you personally and to everyone else.
Hitler might have thought it was rational to kill all jews, but is rational if everyone else thinks it isn't rational?

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2014, 02:42:54 am »
Like I said before, rationality is not an objective measurement. It is a measurement that works within a logical system, a context. Something may be rational given some context, but irrational given another context. The only way for something to be rational to one person and irrational to another is that they either have different information or they have different methods of understanding that method. The former is the premises while the latter is the logical rules.

To compare the rationality of something within a context with the rationality of that same thing in another context is to compare non-normalized data: a big no-no. You can attempt to normalize them, but this is inefficient, perhaps impossible.

The Hitler killing Jews example becomes more understandable in this. At the very least, Hitler is working under different logical rules than us: Jews are evil, Jews are communists, they are destroying the world, nationalism is logical, blah blah. We, however, are operating under completely different premises. You can argue that the premises Hitler is working under are irrational, but realize that they are irrational within your context not objectively so.

And we all hold right to argue that our basic premises, or logic, are superior to Hitler's. But realize that we cannot argue it is objective so. Instead, we come to a rational consensus of sorts. And, as I must stress once more, this the rationality of the consensus is not objective, but rather rational according to each individual's context.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2014, 04:22:06 am »
So rationality is in the eye of the beholder is what you're saying? In which case there is no logic to rationality. You could argue it is just the logical thought process of the individual if you are determined to relate rationality to being logical.

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2014, 06:10:31 am »
To be logical, all you need as to "take a given set of rules, apply these rules to premises, and ... arrive at conclusions." Relative rationality does this. Consensus rationality does this. Both are, thus, logical.

XXXandBEER

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2014, 07:13:00 am »
What about made up rules? You could take any rules and arrive at some conclusion and say its logical that to me seems very illogical.

LifeToLifeLess

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #23 on: January 13, 2015, 11:45:09 am »
Chakeep are you an atheist?

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #24 on: January 13, 2015, 08:04:21 pm »
Of course I am Poobear.

Jacob_Tollison

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #25 on: January 13, 2015, 08:16:51 pm »
I'd like to talk about that atheism of yours, chakra.

LifeToLifeLess

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #26 on: January 14, 2015, 09:48:06 am »
I don't mean to sound preachy.. but you should read the bible chak.. a loooot of facts in there that could change your mind.. you just have to stop being close minded and accept it as truth

Jacob_Tollison

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #27 on: January 14, 2015, 06:13:43 pm »
Accept the LORD as your saviour NOW!

LifeToLifeLess

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2015, 11:09:34 am »
Seeing as you haven't answered in quite some time chak I'm guessing you're not happy with my god comment... I'm an atheist.. was just **** with you lol

Chakra

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Re: Moral beliefs
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2015, 06:03:31 pm »
I just was going to pretend you didn't say it. :)

 

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