Author Topic: ST Minimalistic Discussion (Read 861 times)

Shoop · « **on:** November 10, 2013, 07:51:24 pm »

Some quick changes that needs to be made :

* Remove bug(?) where you get 100 gold from killing stackfarm.
* Make so you cant build stackfarms in the middle.
* Raise prize for golem to 70.
* Lower prize for str potion and str beam with 10 each.
* Increased goldrate for sheep.
* 4 hit upgraded for a higher cost.
* Remove farmbonus from aura, make it speedbonus only.

MORE suggestions please, write everything you can think off but remember to write WHY you want it unless its simple balancechanges like this.

SamLowe · « **Reply #1 on:** November 11, 2013, 01:03:12 am »

Strength potion and beam has the same hotkey in shop, fix!

Add Wide Farm. Why did you remove this in the first place?

Add bomber as it was before Beer changed it. This was a huuuge mastery item which you could combine with golems, strength, mirror etc etc. A great item which took lots of skill to use. We need more arsenals for wolves than just golem and strength.

SharingMyHeroes · « **Reply #2 on:** November 11, 2013, 02:44:44 am »

Do not re add bomber. It was a Runtag-killer item which requires 0 skills to use. ( do not tell me its hard to place it uphill to block sheep from going there).
The bomber we have actually is really usefull (for killing cash farms, tinyabuse denying etc) and does not kill the runtag of ppl.

SamLowe · « **Reply #3 on:** November 11, 2013, 03:37:37 am »

Quote from: SharingMyHeroes

Do not re add bomber. It was a Runtag-killer item which requires 0 skills to use. ( do not tell me its hard to place it uphill to block sheep from going there).
The bomber we have actually is really usefull (for killing cash farms, tinyabuse denying etc) and does not kill the runtag of ppl.

Maybe you who have the creativity of a ****roach can't come up with any other use for it but trust me, there are tons. One example is to use it with a golem by spawning a golem which the sheep thinks it can dodge but then block off the escape path with a bomber, extremely hard to do.

The bomber is the hardest item to use to perfection and timing off a perfect block requires insane skill. It also adds more mastery for sheeps since it takes reactions and speed in order to dodge the bomber.

The only problem is as you say, that it kills runtag. But should we really care that much about runtag? It's a minor and pretty silly aspect of the game. The current bomber kills material-making and action way more than the old bomber anyways. When you're isolated or the last sheep, people will spam them and blow away your remaining farms in 5 seconds, resulting in you having to rely on luck to get out.

Chakra · « **Reply #4 on:** November 11, 2013, 04:43:58 am »

Quote

for killing cash farms, tinyabuse denying etc

Cash farms were removed?
If you use a bomber to counter tiny abuse rather than dropping an item, you're doing it wrong.

Spoofy · « **Reply #5 on:** November 11, 2013, 06:48:04 am »

Quote

Cash farms were removed?
If you use a bomber to counter tiny abuse rather than 'by' dropping an item, you're doing it wrong.

please teach lol? i understand the concept of dropping an item to deny the sheep from building. usually this is done near mid where its easy to predict where the sheep will build. (entrances to pen). But how the **** you have the time to do this while a sheep is escaping an iso etc? he can literally mass tinies to escape. its ****ing easy without a bomber blowing all your tinies up.

edit:

Quote

The only problem is as you say, that it kills runtag. But should we really care that much about runtag? It's a minor and pretty silly aspect of the game. The current bomber kills material-making and action way more than the old bomber anyways. When you're isolated or the last sheep, people will spam them and blow away your remaining farms in 5 seconds, resulting in you having to rely on luck to get out.

if we bring back the old bomber... i suggest we shorten the life span of it (amount of time its able to block sheep), increase the cost, and decrease the damage (still keep the damage though). the damage of the bomber just has to be enough to kill tinies.

Chakra · « **Reply #6 on:** November 11, 2013, 10:27:10 am »

Quote

please teach lol? i understand the concept of dropping an item to deny the sheep from building. usually this is done near mid where its easy to predict where the sheep will build. (entrances to pen). But how the **** you have the time to do this while a sheep is escaping an iso etc? he can literally mass tinies to escape. its ****ing easy without a bomber blowing all your tinies up.

Tiny abuse has always traditionally meant the same thing: getting into a corner and spamming one or two tinies to gain an extra few seconds. Bombers here would be a waste of gold, just line beam of strength and buying cloak.

I guess I can't decide what the term "tiny abuse" means, but it didn't mean spamming them in the open. But this would be a fine use for bombers, I suppose.

Shoop · « **Reply #7 on:** November 11, 2013, 01:22:08 pm »

The whole idea of ST Minimalistic is to NOT add things for dogmatic reasons like "it adds mastery" (which by the way is a fallacy, the correct description would be "it requires mastery") or "it can be used in many ways". There are a lot of things that requires mastery and can be used in many ways, what we need are real discussions behind WHY we want just that specific mastery added to ST and WHY we want to be able to do that.

So the people who argue for bomber, sure it requires mastery to use it, but why do we want that specific mastery in ST?

And you say it can be used against tinyabuse but dont really tell us what tinyabuse is. What is it exacly that you want the wolves to able to counter and why?

Also, widefarm, same.

I am not for or against atm, I just want the reasons now.

But ye str potion and beam cant have the same hotkey obviously.

Chakra, would you be willing to do some of these changes once we completed some sort of changelog for the next version? Right now its just brainstorming, but it would be good to know if we had someone who could and was willing to actually do the changes too?

FaceOfMelinda · « **Reply #8 on:** November 11, 2013, 01:45:27 pm »

Mastery is the difference between the best player and the worst player.

Im strongly against this map because rather than developing the game you remove mass ffeaturs from an already minimalistic game. We need more features even if theyre not all great.

SharingMyHeroes · « **Reply #9 on:** November 11, 2013, 02:52:03 pm »

So what is the reason of widefarm's removal?

Shoop · « **Reply #10 on:** November 11, 2013, 07:34:50 pm »

Sidey that is not at all the aim of this map, the aim is to remove all the bullshit added for no reason, and develop a map based on good decisions rather than guessing.

Overall mastery is a positive thing, but to conclude from this that anything that requires mastery should be added is a fallacy.

FaceOfMelinda · « **Reply #11 on:** November 11, 2013, 07:50:09 pm »

What's the difference between mastery and overall mastery?

I've always said that overall mastery will make the map better in all cases. Still no example to prove me wrong after 5 years or so.

But yeah this project seems to be an outlet for you to debate every little change rather than actually develop the map. What you manage in a decade beer does in an evening in terms of change. I will support Beer no matter how low iq and retarded he is over the current alternative.

Night · « **Reply #12 on:** November 11, 2013, 07:53:23 pm »

So since no one asked this question, can shoop explain why is this map any better than beers map? I mean whats the reason to create a completely different map, make radical changes such as these? Bring in the arguements.

Shoop · « **Reply #13 on:** November 11, 2013, 07:55:02 pm »

Sidey
Overall mastery is a general goal for the map, that you can get better in the map by practicing/playing. That there is a scale between a really bad a really good player. That the map requires skill and allows you to get better.

Specific mastery, this applies to nearly everything. For instance, sheepimage, requires mastery. You will get better at judging when the right time to use the sheep image is. You will get better as wolf to know when it is an image. You will get better at controlling your image. Sheep image use requires mastery, but that alone is not a reason to have it in the map.

Night
I havent claimed that the map is better right now. This is the first version and there are loads of things to be changed, removed and added to it. But this is a better ground for a future sheep tag map. This is a chance to design a map based on reason. Not guesses and populism or whatever Beers grounds are.

Night · « **Reply #14 on:** November 11, 2013, 08:05:46 pm »

Quote from: Shoop on November 11, 2013, 07:55:02 pm

Night
I havent claimed that the map is better right now. This is the first version and there are loads of things to be changed, removed and added to it. But this is a better ground for a future sheep tag map. This is a chance to design a map based on reason. Not guesses and populism or whatever Beers grounds are.

I agree with the fact that beer is not the best map maker, but i think his map is a better ground.
Most people enjoy playing on revo map the way it is, except for a few changes that should be made(Remove sheep illusion). This is why im asking for VALID reasons to make a completely different map and try to improve it rather than take a full-proof map and try to optimize it. So far ur only arguement is that "this is a chance to design a map based on reason". What prevents u from taking th 7.4.3 map and design it based on reason? Beer isn't the mapmaker anymore and im sure chakra can take this matter into his own hands.

So give me real arguements why ur map should be developed and current map thrown to the trash.

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Author Topic: ST Minimalistic Discussion (Read 861 times)

Shoop

ST Minimalistic Discussion

SamLowe

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SharingMyHeroes

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SamLowe

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Chakra

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Spoofy

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Chakra

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Shoop

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FaceOfMelinda

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SharingMyHeroes

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Shoop

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FaceOfMelinda

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Night

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Shoop

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Night

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