Sheep Tag Community
General Category => Community Discussion => Topic started by: XXXandBEER on October 29, 2014, 02:03:21 am
-
If you want me to come back should take CMK's suggestion :D
But if you want to move forward and develop the map in a different direction I still strongly suggest:
- Shrinking the map considerably
- Wolves 4 hit kill farms
- Adjusting item price to fit a shorter game
- Bring back cheap iron golems
No idea why you removed iron golems, the only item that long term made you micro more than one unit as wolf, increasing skill while alleviating boredom (especially with camping). Honestly, this is the one idea I'm surprised anyone is against.
But really what makes this game boring? #1 is map filling up with farms and wolves giving up. #2 is wolves not having anything interesting to do. You can two birds one stone this with smaller map and weaker wolves.
Why weaker wolves? Not because I want to nerf wolves (the smaller map makes this not a nerf) but because killing farms in 1-2 hits eliminates the finesse and/or importance of golems/golem jumps/mirrors/mirror jumps/str pot/str beam/wolf teamwork/sheep teamwork/upgrade farms/strong farms/frost farms/stack farms/tiny farms.
Claws/cloaks may have been a necessary item so that the shepherds start winning over time. But they are a boring item. Instead of buying more interesting items you're saving up all your gold (and allies gold) to buy an item that makes interesting items/farms not as important. Ignoring this was probably my biggest mistake in map design, back when y'all listened to me ;)
I would love to see these changes. I agree, wolfing is really boring, because all you is save up for 1 hit.
-
If you want me to come back should take CMK's suggestion :D
But if you want to move forward and develop the map in a different direction I still strongly suggest:
- Shrinking the map considerably
- Wolves 4 hit kill farms
- Adjusting item price to fit a shorter game
- Bring back cheap iron golems
No idea why you removed iron golems, the only item that long term made you micro more than one unit as wolf, increasing skill while alleviating boredom (especially with camping). Honestly, this is the one idea I'm surprised anyone is against.
But really what makes this game boring? #1 is map filling up with farms and wolves giving up. #2 is wolves not having anything interesting to do. You can two birds one stone this with smaller map and weaker wolves.
Why weaker wolves? Not because I want to nerf wolves (the smaller map makes this not a nerf) but because killing farms in 1-2 hits eliminates the finesse and/or importance of golems/golem jumps/mirrors/mirror jumps/str pot/str beam/wolf teamwork/sheep teamwork/upgrade farms/strong farms/frost farms/stack farms/tiny farms.
Claws/cloaks may have been a necessary item so that the shepherds start winning over time. But they are a boring item. Instead of buying more interesting items you're saving up all your gold (and allies gold) to buy an item that makes interesting items/farms not as important. Ignoring this was probably my biggest mistake in map design, back when y'all listened to me ;)
-
Drew please come back. ..... some of these euro's I sometimes just can't take and you were probably only East Sheep tagger I played with that actually was different and I could talk to about sheep tag....
-
;D
-
Fix old map.
Remove X from sheep
fix 3hit farms
old items backs
-
Can't we just bring the old Bomber back but with a collision or flying for that matter?
So it can just do 1 auto and then die?
-
It doesn't seem like you really read my post.
I said I wasn't against the idea, just that the timing would need to be changed. I even suggested one of your solutions, only with actual numbers and the method of implementing said solution.
I said I was against bomber autokilling constructing buildings, as 10 seconds to drop a bomber on an aura farm would be insanely easy, and all but eliminate aura farms from the game.
I said bombers might turn into an item used solely to kill aura farms. My reasoning was that any amount of damage that would allow a reasonable success rate against frost farms would result in an extremely high success rate against aura farms (though it could be interesting to have sheep trying to cancel the building as the bomber fell, if we made it ~1.5 second kill window), unless we had farm specific damage through triggers.
My main worry is that it will become an item that almost fully counters aura farms. Sheep already have few enough gold options, they can't afford to lose one.
-
Or you could just put trees back into the game and use them for their real use :) Trees are fun! The old Bottom Right with trees was awesome fun.
-
So I see two important points to your post.
*The timing window is impossible/too small OR it's too easy/broken. Sure the timing seems really difficult, but in reality you already KNOW where they sheep is going to build. Take that into account. The only timings I'm mainly concerned with are aura and frost. There's a couple of ways to solve that as well (change cast delay from .25 to .1) or change the damage done to BUC. We could also change the cast range. Maybe a slight nerf to cast range would be reasonable. Again I don't know the perfect values for my suggested change... I ultimately just want bombers to be more useful without changing their original purpose or without making them broken (this is where you the mapmakers could fill in the blanks!).
*45 gold to ~maybe kill a higher priced farm is not broken. You must consider what many other items bring to the table for the same price. Not only does bomber not kill any fully built farm, but it's almost impossible to yield a kill with it unless you're following it up with more items. It's also a consumable one time use yo!
And to those who are concerned about mass bombers... Why? It would still cost the same amount of gold to kill an aoe of farms. Nothing in that respect has been changed. We're just tinkering with it. It's not like a complete rework of the item! It's just a slight buff.
It's kind of funny how you say it might turn into an item used solely to kill BUC, well at least then people are using it for something useful. :D
-
5 hit farm = 24 damage
Aura farm has 200 health, 10 second build time, aka 20 health/sec, aka 1.2 seconds to hit with bomber to kill.
Frost farm has 200 health, 6 second build time, aka 33 health sec aka .72 seconds to hit with bomber to kill.
Shepherd cast point = .3 seconds
Bomber animation delay = .25 seconds
Turn rate is variable and who knows the exact time it takes, but it factors in.
So at least .55 seconds between casting and damage being dealt.
.72 - .55(+) = max .17 seconds between a sheep building a frost farm and a shepherd targeting it. This doesn't even factor in latency. Seems pretty much impossible without casting before it begins construction, which is risky at best.
1.2 - .55(+) = max .65 seconds for aura farm. This is definitely doable, but you'd still most likely have to have a bomber in your inventory and quick reactions with little delay.
I'd suggest more than 24 damage, or maybe 150% damage to constructing structures. I think constructing structures have armor type unarmored so you could change
Advanced>Gameplay Constants> Combat - Damage Bonus Table - Spells
to 150% against unarmored to do this. Haven't tested this.
Kind of hard to balance the item when build times and healths are so drastically different without triggering it for individual farms or at least making it percent based. Regular farm would only have a .2 second opening... you'd have to cast before the sheep started building just to have a chance. Upgraded or strong would be virtually impossible.
I'm not opposed to the idea, I just think it might turn into an item solely used to kill aura farms or not used at all.
Edit: if the item is supposed to automatically kill any constructing structure, I don't like it. A ridiculously easy kill on auras/frosts for less gold than either farm costs.
-
Ok, i misread what you said, sorry for the pointless post, but i am glad that people are taking this seriously and voicing their opinion.
-
@hawkys
No, it would only be able to kill farms that are currently building (auras/frost or even a regular farm if timed perfectly). In order to kill an AOE of farms you would need to purchase 5 of them (200ish gold)
-
I agree with most of it beer, but the idea of it being "super cheap" is well, kind of cheap ^^ All wolves will use that ability often and if a sheep is caught in a tiny mass, rather than holding sides / using skill, u can just drop the bomber and it kills 5 farms? I'd suggest making it atleast 40 - 50 gold.
-
So cele for your bomber option you want a super cheaper low damage bomber that can destroy farms that are building and/or destroy a full HP farm with 5 of them.
I like it anyone oppose?
Illusions I think we should let be for now
Gloves cost will be lowered
-
Hear me out:
Damage is amplified to Buildings-Under-Construction (BUC?). There is only 2 items in the game that can do ranged damage. Ranged Str pot, and bombers. So logically the most practical use for bombers is to destroy (BUC). (Yes, there is those insane 3? bomber attacks but those are overrated and costly, and rarely successful).
What I'm proposing would still retain what you can do currently, but now they are relative throughout the entire match. Here's the jist:
Lower bomber damage to be equivalent to 1/5 the damage of a normal farm (it requires you to buy 5 to do the mass bomb ***). Since I don't know the numbers that's where you could help. Current cost should still be relative to how much it would still cost to currently kill a full hp aoe of normal farms (or whatever you think is fair, honestly I think this value would still be good)
*- I kind of just chose this since I think that you should have to be quick to cast it as they build... the problem is the reaction i'm hoping for might be too fast or too slow, we could tinker or maybe you could figure something out. Could always go 1/6 or 1/7 with respective costs.
So why are these changes positive?
Well now we finally have an active (fun?) item that's an interim between golems, cloaks, and other costly items. It would be clumped into the same class as speed pots, invuln pots, and both str pots. It rewards fast reactions (kill dat aura farm or frost farm before it gets canceled!), strategic thinking (mid now needs a bomber in case of frost farms?!) all the while not being overpowered.
So what are the negatives?
People, at first, may overuse bombers. Yeah that might kind of suck but in essence these changes don't make bombers overpowered, they're just useful (unlike what they are now). People who can use bombers more effectively will use them more, and have more success with them. People who "just don't get it" will buy bombers and be useless with them, however that's a problem for every item and any skill you add to a game.
In closing:
I think we can all agree that wolfing is the most boring part of sheep tag. Sheeping is what is sought after, and though sheep rarely win... when they do it seems like NOBODY enjoys it. I hope that this item, in part, solves some of that issue (yay an active item that's cheap, useful, and requires a bit of knowledge and skill!).
I hope that we can even implement another active item that shepherds can use as well, later on. After we see the positive effects of bomber (I'm 100% certain that the community will enjoy this change), hopefully people will be more open to new ideas for a cheap cost item (ideas folks?? attack speed potion? psuedo attack potion (lower damage to 0!)).
As far as illusions go... god no not 2.0 speed. But maybe somewhere halfway what it is now and what it was. I have a feeling peasants would revolt at this change though... tread lightly lol.
And as far as gloves go... a slight reduction in cost would suffice!
Sorry about the edits... my internet went out and i had to redo a lot of this post.
-
@nmcdo
Exactly so we need to figure out the direction we want to head in before we go implementing point systems! Good idea though!
@cele
Are we talking like F20 mirror images? Cause those were kinda OP lol. I do think the speed should be increased, but how much is the right amount?
Bombers do suck. So I propose 2 options
Option 1: Reduce AOE and Cost greatly. And increase its damage to 1 hit a regular farm. This would make it a ranged STR pot with splash in essence.
Option 2: Revert it back to the path blocking bomber it used to be. (people complained this ruined runtag so lets put it up for debate)
Preferably I like option 1. Just need to work out the costs etc.
As for gloves I do think the price is unfair, but they definitely give plenty of AS at 33%
-
A few buffs to wolves I also was thinking about before sidey mentioned it.
Make mirror imaging near instantaneous, and reduce mana cost.
Why?
1. Mirror imaging is singlehandedly the biggest technical skill, arguably even more skillful than goleming. If we reduce the cast time then the people who can do it better will be rewarded with more kills.
2. Mirror imaging right now is hugely lackluster. It takes too long, and usually just results in you getting trapped rather than a kill. The reduction in cast time will also allow wolves under lots of pressure to make an illusions and hold their side. This rewards micromanagement AND wolves that understand cutting better.
Another idea. Make bombers less garbage. I don't know how maybe some other people can come up with some ideas but right now it's complete garbage. The only time bombers are useful as of now is when you have THREE of them and basically a sheep is already isolated. Pretty trashy item if you need three of them for any impact.
Buff gloves. I don't know how many times I've said this throughout the years... gloves has NEVER been a legitimate strategy due to their absurd gold cost. Gloves are comparable to the same price as a golem (Which in essense gives you 1 shot at a kill). Compare the relative cost vs usefulness of gloves vs golems and you can easily see how bad they are right now. Lower gold cost or raise attack speed. I need my extendo ****.
-
Another point:
NONE OF YOU EVER WANT TO PLAY BD. A game where sheep are mastery-capped and the wolves shine.
It seems as if playing wolf is boring - by your own collective admission.
-
Arguably buff wolves - but not in a way that requires 0 skill (i.e., more damage).
Wolves need items similar to the str potion that require understanding, reflexes, and timing.
I also think it's CRAZY to suggest that sheep should win more. Games won by sheep are almost always boring with players going AFK and no one - including the sheep team - having a good time.
-
Finally a really nice response, and I agree, as you know it was an idea and I wanted to see how far I could allocate it towards ST. I'm liking the push towards winning as sheep, as of right now maybe 1 in 50 rounds (larger games) get close or actually win. But I also think people don't want St to be boring, so we are at a huge conflict here as far as I can see. The majority of European players prefer faster and no games won style, while it seems quite a few American players agree on winning as a goal - not a show. So the idea really is behind what people want /you want. Keep it the way it is and add some stuff or move towards a more possible winning game. My regards.
-
@Nmcdo
Final Answer no
The goal of Sheep Tag is to win the game (last the round time). Shouldn't matter how you do it, as long as you do do it.
What I'm saying is that people will go for these "points" and maybe lose the round to suicide save a sheep for "25 points" or whatever. I do not want to make the goal "earn the most points" I want the goal of Sheep Tag to be win the round!! You're probably going to say make winning the round give points. Which makes sense, but now it starts coming down to whose on your team. Then what happens? Should I give extra points to people who get the person whose in last on their team? Where does it end?!
An overall performance rating to me just doesn't seem that important. All it will do is feed peoples egos and cause mad arguments. You don't need a silly number to know how well you played and you shouldn't care what other people think about your game play.
Also keeping track of all these points for 12 players could potentially cause lag for some people. Very minuscule lag, but it may be noticeable to some.
-
Nothing is perfect Beer, but we can make it close as it possible can be new proposition:
Mid (wolf) = 1 point / Sec
Wolf kill = 25 points
Wolf Assist = 15 Points
1 Farm = 2 points (Not sure about this)
Saving = 25 points
Middle as sheep = 1 point / Sec
Corners as sheep = 0.5 point / sec
Last sheep alive = 15 points
This system gives a pretty good balance as most sheep points are lower because sheep usually have more options point wise.
Can I please get a response that isn't "Its to hard to decide" I've worked with everything youve said.
-
The problem is when you have a ranking system, you ALWAYS have people trying to cheat it, making a point based system that is solid is a lot of work with no reward. #UpgradeThe$$$$$Farm
-
Could also be interesting to have a "convert to income" upgrade. It would cost ~25 gold and remove the farm from the game, but continue to provide the gold/sec. Dying would reset your income. Basically pay 25 gold to make your farm unable to be killed.
I like where your head is at with this idea, but it would need a high build time imo to prevent abuse. Which idea do most of you guys prefer?
Upgrade the farm for more gold/sec
or
Permanent income
@Nmcdo/008
Yes a point system is cool, but I think making a properly working one would be way to up for debate. Whose to say getting a kill is worth more points then something else or the other way around. It is almost impossible to make a proper "Overall performance" point system.
-
@Beer/Nmcdo:
You could use every stats we currently have and make a combination of those to make the scoring system.
For example, staying alive 100% of your round = 50 points ( if not, use a ratio ), each kill gives 5 points, every save gives 10 points, etc.
You could eventually discuss which stat should give the more points. It wouldn't be perfect but at least it wouldn't take too much time to implement it.
-
@Beer's response, It puts everyone on the same field. As of right now there is no proper way of comparing Players and what they've done. One might look at wolf kills as their way of owning as wolf or leader as sheep - this would be the ultimate Combiner. You could even have it like this:
On scoreboard = Points listed.
Commands added
-Points Wolf
-Points Sheep
I personally would get excited to have points as an equalizer and interesting addition to the game.
Wouldn't it be cool to see if Dark_Exodus is 502 points while stay_cool has 600?
I think it would be AMAZING.
Look forward to your response.
-
I agree with mad and am pleased that ideas can be put to life. Lets make this happen :P
-
I think the saving farm upgrade should cost a bit more than the original, say 45 gold, to account for the benefits it provides over building two saving farms.
Could also be interesting to have a "convert to income" upgrade. It would cost ~25 gold and remove the farm from the game, but continue to provide the gold/sec. Dying would reset your income. Basically pay 25 gold to make your farm unable to be killed.
I like the bloodlust idea. Shouldn't have too big of an effect on any game larger than 2v4, even if the sheep was able to save all its allies.
-
@Hawkys
I believe it is 1 gold per 4 seconds. So the upgrade you suggested another 35 for 1 gold every 2. This would make hiding money farms easier and reduce the necessity to run to corners building a ton of them. And increasing bounty for money farm will definitely have to happen if this is implemented.
I do like this idea and would love to hear what others think about it.
I like the bloodlust idea, but it seems a lil iffy. It sounds like a fun idea, but also could be game changing. Would need others opinions.
@Nmcdo
Overall I don't see the need for a scoring system. We already have plenty of stat commands etc.
No other contributors? Sidey I thought you wanted an update gimme your thoughts!!!
-
After more thinking, I have come to the conclusion that having money upgrades is a MUST! In most cases the wolf always wins, i believe this will be balance the game. Here is a log of what I have come up with
1 Money farm( non upgraded) = 35 Gold right? From map making experience the timer is 1 gold for ever 2 -3 seconds (not sure exactly as i have only worked with ultimate map)
-This farm should have an upgrade (same price 35 gold so total = 70 gold) But it should change the interval to a gold every second.
2 This would dramatically reduce the number of money farms built so it would be easier to conceal around the map. The problem with sheep tag is more often than not sheep are out of gold and forced to use regular farms [less time to react / plan and less time to have a successful bridge]
3 As far as wolf gold, idk maybe 20 gold every money farm [more of an initiative to hide it well and remove before wolf gets to destroy it.]
-also while i am already posting about an idea here is another.
It would be interesting to have a 5-6 second blood lust that makes the sheep faster however, to make it more fair i think this ability should only be allowed when there is 1 sheep left. this ability should only be allowed to be used when we have a decent game up, 2v4 6v6 etc.
-
As for mid it could work like this; after the first sheep dies the wolf in middle gets 0.5 point a second for as long as it's there (wisp).
For saving make it 25 points. Also it was an example beer and right now I'm just adding to it, I don't see what you quoted as flip flop either lol.
-
Cool ideas, but you kinda flip flop
".5 points for being in corners to discourage cornering"
"last survivor 25 points"
Also what about the wolf that has to take mid? And Sheep that save allies. Need more infos!! Work out the details nmcdo I believe!
-
Heres an example of a scoring system that I imagine.
Wolf kill = 50 points
Assist(ing) wolves (Would have to be a range of closeness to the kill) = 25 points
As Sheep: Every 1 second a sheep would earn one point (NEAR MIDDLE) and Would get 0.5 Points for being in corners, this would discourage cornering in games.
As sheep: Being Last survivor = 25 points.
Tell me your thoughts yo
-
Damn guys keep the ideas flowing!
@Mad Although I would love to try it out I do not think I will have time to implement/tweak that much. Also as you said thats a very drastic change and could be another game itself. Thanks for ideas though!
@Hawkys Awesome idea, but throw some numbers at me. And just strictly upgrades for more gold? What about upgrades for invisibility etc.
@Trollpro/NMCDO
I like where your guys heads are at these are more the changes I'm talking about. Balancing/tweaking. I do not think increasing stomp time would be fair as you can spam stomp over and over. Also there is mana pots/mana runes/mana regen items for more mana try to conserve it better! The stomp range is currently at 300? I believe? Not entirely sure. You may be right with the animation being off I'll take a look at it.
@Nmcdo
War drums are meant to give all wolves 2 hit for aura. It is still cheaper then having each individual wolf purchase a c16. More damage could help it a bit.
Scoring system? Need specifics this could mean anything
Discuss! Discuss! Discuss!
Keep gimme input.
-
Some of this goes off of drew's post: http://sheeptag.createaforum.com/community-discussion/my-new-st-map-ideas/msg4473/#msg4473 (http://sheeptag.createaforum.com/community-discussion/my-new-st-map-ideas/msg4473/#msg4473).
I think it would be interesting to have the map size expand as the game goes.
For example, at the start, the sheep would only be able to build in 1/4 of the map surround the start pen (AKA the intersection of 25-75% length and 25-75% height), then every ~3 minutes the map would expand, allowing sheep to build in another 1/4 of the map area.
The map would look something like this:
(http://i57.tinypic.com/wuplp4.png)
Each box represents the boundaries after another ~3 minutes.
Obviously the terrain/timing/size of boundaries might have to be played around with. I think it would work well if every expansion also reduced the number of hits for a shepherd to kill a farm, starting with 4 hits, i.e. after 3 minutes shepherds get 3 hit, after 6, 2 hit, after 9, 1 hit. This could be done automatically, or just base shepherd gold generation around these expectations. If it is automatic, shepherd gold generation would have to be reduced accordingly.
On an unrelated note, I would like to see some sort of sheep progression/expanded gold options. What I mean by this is that, throughout the game, shepherds get significantly better based on gold and have a relatively large amount of options for gold, where sheep remain relatively constant, and really only have a few things to spend gold on, and only one (stack farms, though you could argue frost as well, for saving) is useful for anything besides augmenting mass durability.
Could maybe do something like:
Sheep gain experience for being alive (reset to lvl 1 if they die), possibly increased by proximity to wolves. Every level a sheep gains increases gold generation by a small amount (~.1-.2 gold/sec per level), every other level gives sheep access to an ability that costs gold (used in a similar manner to portable shop).
Some abilities could be:
Sprint - increases run speed by 10% for 3 seconds.
Fortitude - increases health of nearby farms by 100 for 5 seconds.
Blind - causes nearby farms to block shepherd line of sight for 5 seconds or kills all nearby wards and reduces nearby shepherd vision drastically.
This probably isn't what you're looking for, as the changes would be pretty drastic, I just think they could be interesting.
-
I think that money farm upgrades should be put in, not sure about the ratio tho.
-
I disagree with Nmcdo, im afraid if u increase the range of the stomp the sheep will never be able to avoid it either, i feel it works in a prober way doing isolations because i clearly feel it but it would suck to be in range of stomp each time you runtag and neither do i want the cool down by the effects of the stomp to last forever either becuz there is a difference when cmk put the stacks compared to others with his high skill level, so please dont :)=
-
First off, I wanna make this clear: currently I am in a bad position to think about the map as I have just started playing so I can only work off what I remember.
1. War drums either need to be made stronger or cost less as currently is a item that has 0 use EVER.
2. Do something with stomp, as it is; it just doesn't seem to work as well as you would want it to. For example sometimes you can be clearly in range of the sheep and stomp within that range and it doesn't work, what? Also I feel like the time it disables stack doesn't last long enough because the sheep usually has enough time to recover and do a Cmk-triple-stack-move or something else. Also lower mana a little as keeping a sheep disarmed I often find myself very drained of mana...
3. Add in a scoring system? (Do this only if you want to but make it properly.) <--- Only if you want to.
I will probably add more later but I can't really think of that much atm, but please take a moment to read my suggestions ^^.
-
Hello guys! I haven't really been up to date with whats happening. I hear ST is making a comeback. So I figured I'd ask you guys what you want!
The last time I updated the map was May 8th version 7.7.4
Located Here:
http://www.epicwar.com/maps/242786/
I may have some spare time to release an edit or two. Depending on what you guys want.
Play it and let me know your thoughts on what should be Added/Removed/Changed
Lets try to get some serious discussions going!
That means no flaming, or trolling PLS
List any bugs found or ideas you have for the map. Lets have a serious map balancing thread for once!
SAY YOUR OPINION!
I can't emphasize this enough. If one person suggests something and NO ONE contests it I will probably do what they say (assuming it's not 100% absurd).
So please everyone give FEEDBACK!!!