Sheep Tag Community
General Category => Community Discussion => Topic started by: XXXandBEER on February 21, 2017, 10:25:46 pm
-
Some cool ideas for abilities.
What are your guys thoughts on the option for a camera follow? So you dont have to scroll left/right
-
Without really considering fairness/balance, Sheep abilities could be stuff like:
Give a farm + 100 health for 5 seconds.
Move at 5% increased move speed for 5 seconds then move 10% slower for 5 seconds or maybe move slower first then faster.
Redirect as an ability (cast on a farm to make nearby golems attack it)
Taunt (like a self-redirect, make all enemies attack you, to help bridge)
Make all farms in a small area invulnerable for a few seconds, but then they all die.
You could even have tech trees like you're talking about for shepherds (harassing/expanding/saving/bridging/monetary specializations).
Agreed with nmcdo on physics stuff.
But yeah, we are probably getting ahead of things, just getting a functioning game would be really nice.
-
Jumping Up a hill: No this would be broken and abused way to easily. I don't think there should be a jump limit.
-
Some physics-based questions:
Should there be a 'jump limit' like in the current Sheep Tag? I believe it's 7.5 farms or something?
Should Sheep be able to jump up hill?
-
What kind of abilities would the Sheep have? Assuming they have abilities you are correct, but otherwise mana/gold are interchangeable and practically the same.
Once people have the tech trees memorized they won't spend much time in them. But it could kill game flow opening up a menu or navigating whatever UI I setup for it.
I agree buying items is positive, but I really don't think there's room in Sheep Tag for items and leveling up.
I think I'll just stick to the conventional Sheep Tag for now, and see how that goes.
-
For sheep I was thinking they would get some abilities that cost mana and that farms would still cost gold, just to separate currencies, so you didn't have to choose between using one or the other. I suppose you could have abilities with no cost and high cooldowns, then use mana for farms, but if you're going that route, it seems weird to have mana be the currency for building farms over gold.
For shepherds, I agree that you could probably replace all passives with tech trees, but I'd be concerned about how much time people would spend just looking at their options, and how often they would have to open a menu to tech into something. I was thinking something like max level of 5, and after every level up you get to choose one of 2-4 abilities, then leave passive items in the shops to be bought with gold. I'd also say that, in general, buying items is considered a positive part of games.
-
I think gold is probably still a good idea for building farms and buying passive items though.
Could you elaborate on this? What is the difference between gaining gold passively (if there's no sources of gold for sheep) and gaining mana passively. We can assume Saving a wisp can grant extra mana.
Then for wolf, what passive items are there? Claws you would level and get damage. Cloak would be an ability under damage tech tree, Aura's would be support tech tree, essentially we'd have various tech trees so not every play as wolf is the same.
I just don't see the point on passive gold when mana is the same thing. Also, we are not restricted to only 4 abilities like Wc3 limited. I can let the wolf have 100 abilities if we want lol.
-
Check out http://www.epicwar.com/maps/262649/ . It's somewhere between revolution and what you described above. Consumables are pretty much entirely replaced by hero abilities, and shepherds choose from a few classes. Sheep leveling up was planned, but sheep tag was pretty much dead already. We had some pretty solid 2v4/3v5 games for a few weeks though.
If you don't feel like actually playing it, I described the changes a while back in http://sheeptag.createaforum.com/community-discussion/sheep-tag-relapse-1-0-0/msg5075/#msg5075
I think gold is probably still a good idea for building farms and buying passive items though.
-
The Sheep need a way to get gold for better farms or as Mad stated 'Level Up' now leveling up could be a solution that lots of gamers are already familiar with.
Sheep could level up from building farms, and saving allies.
Wolves would level up from killing sheep, and hitting farms.
If we do a level up system for both Sheep and Wolf, we could potentially get rid of gold entirely. Wolves would get abilities and would be able to tech into different trees if they want to be a 'damage' wolf, 'summoner' wolf, 'support' wolf etc. Which could actually be pretty neat, and create some good strategies.
Overall it would eliminate the need for shops, items (which most items are 1 off abilities anyways), and gold. Who thinks a system like this could work? I could mock up a skill tree. Sheep could also have a skill tree, but I think since there's not many farms, we should just unlock farms as they play longer and level up.
Important question is how do we handle upper tier farms. For instance once they unlock an 'aura' farm do we put it on cooldown so they can't just keep making aura farm? Or should it be mana based. So regular farm is 0 mana, aura farm is 45 mana etc, upgrade could 4, etc.
This could really work I think!
-
I would agree that saving farms should be removed or preferably immediately removed upon finishing construction and turned into income (like st hiding/farm defense/relapse). Like you said Beer, the only way the current saving farm is useful is if you have a giant mass/no pressure, which I think is pretty much the opposite of what we want to see in games. The problem with completely removing them from the game is they are the only way sheep get better throughout the round, so we would need to add something like leveling up as the round goes on (I like the idea of this even with saving farms).
The two interval idea is basically the way it currently is except you turned the default gold interval and saving farm interval to be 6 seconds, instead of what they are now (1 and 4, maybe?). Really more of a balance issue I'd say.
I think the tokens would have a positive impact on the game, but they feel a little hacky/forced to me. Kinda hard to describe, but just getting this token every 30 farms doesn't feel like part of a real game, as much as being forced to do something. I guess it's better if you get +1 food every time you build a farm, and then can build a chicken farm or some **** for 30 food in addition to gold, but it still seems weird to have a currency that is only used for one thing. Maybe if frost farms/aura farms also had animals involved and cost food to build?
-
I am in favor of COMPLETELY REMOVING SAVING FARMS
I think most legends will agree, an important aspect of st is gold management. Using it when it matters. Maybe we can put it to a vote or something.
edit: maybe instead of every one interval adding the gold, but every second interval. So u would have 3 seconds 1 gold. Then the next 3 seconds ur gold depends on how many saving s farms (if none is 0) then the next cycle u get 1 gold? What u think about this beer?
-
NMCDO and I came up with a unique idea for Savings Farms.
The typical savings farm goes like this:
-Wait till you have 35 gold
-Blow it all on a savings farm
-Hope it doesnt die within the first 3 seconds.
-Then you die cause you have no gold :D
It's currently extremely punishing to make a savings farm unless your mass is the size of Texas. In which case it is extremely punishing for the Wolves to catch up, as you can just sit and spam Savings farms safely without having to do anything else.
SOLUTION!
After you have built X amount of farms you are awarded a "Bank Token" where you can make a money farm. We found a good medium to be between 25-35 farms before a bank token is awarded.
This not only encourages players to build farms, but prevents them from sitting in a corner and massing savings farms. They now have to play and constantly build farms to acquire a bank token.
I think it will benefit both Sheep and Shepherd gameplay, and it will be more clear to newer players that they have a bank token they should make a bank/money farm.
Thoughts?
-
I'd say keep it simple with the stack farm and just have them stack as usual. Combining them seems like it would be weird with constructing/X/canceling and, while you shouldn't really be doing it in the first place, I think it would make stacking them kinda useless.
Agreed I'll keep it as usual and go from there. Little things like this could easily agitate a veteran player.
I think receiving gold upon killing the farm feels better/more satisfying, but pillage would be better in the type of situation where two shepherds are cutting together. Maybe award gold based on damage done when the farm dies, though I'm still a fan of giving equal gold to all shepherds when a farm is killed regardless of who damages it.
Evenly split gold amongst all Shepherds could be interesting, and would remove the feeding a Shepherd strategy which I think is archaic and bad design anyways. I really want to avoid a game balance where the goal is to feed 1 wolf. All players need to feel powerful as if they are progressing during the game.
For day/night, if saving stays the way it is now, it might be interesting to have a short(15-60 seconds) night period where sheep spirits become invisible to shepherds making it easier to save, ideally encouraging sheep to push towards the middle in preparation and making saving easier. Or maybe make spirits only savable at night, but much easier to save (possibly instantly revived), that way a shepherd doesn't have to spend the entire game in the pen and there could be a lot of intensity trying to survive until the next night period. In general I'm a big fan of making a sheep death less catastrophic (especially when it's early in the round) and preventing spirits/shepherds from spending half the game basically AFK in the middle.
I really really like this idea. Definitely will have to play with it. Not sure which version I like. Maybe a hybrid?
I like the idea that there won't have to be a 'Camper', but I also like the idea of easier saves at night. Maybe during the day the Wisp is visible to the Shepherd's only making it so Sheep have to make a Sentry or get vision some how to save. During the night the Wisp is only visible to the Sheep making the Shepherd have to get vision via Wards or elsewhere. This could drastically change the flow of the game though, people expanding during the day and collapsing on the pen at night, could make for an exciting game.
Need more opinions on this matter!!!
Agreed on no trading items and reducing the amount of typing as much as possible. If you're going with a portable shop, ideally all items would be purchasable from a quick shop type menu.
Yes! Exactly! The less typing the better.
-
Yes! Why haven't we thought of this before, pillage for wolves sounds a great idea, and forces wolves to cut / play more efficiently. It also removes the aspect of wanting to finish off a farm for the gold. It makes it so you can pressure a sheep on all the farms and still make gold.
A problem would be the cloak granting more gold gain from hitting so many farms. I think a way to balance this is make claws yield less gold, but have the capacity to cut through farma faster.
-
I'd say keep it simple with the stack farm and just have them stack as usual. Combining them seems like it would be weird with constructing/X/canceling and, while you shouldn't really be doing it in the first place, I think it would make stacking them kinda useless.
I think receiving gold upon killing the farm feels better/more satisfying, but pillage would be better in the type of situation where two shepherds are cutting together. Maybe award gold based on damage done when the farm dies, though I'm still a fan of giving equal gold to all shepherds when a farm is killed regardless of who damages it.
For day/night, if saving stays the way it is now, it might be interesting to have a short(15-60 seconds) night period where sheep spirits become invisible to shepherds making it easier to save, ideally encouraging sheep to push towards the middle in preparation and making saving easier. Or maybe make spirits only savable at night, but much easier to save (possibly instantly revived), that way a shepherd doesn't have to spend the entire game in the pen and there could be a lot of intensity trying to survive until the next night period. In general I'm a big fan of making a sheep death less catastrophic (especially when it's early in the round) and preventing spirits/shepherds from spending half the game basically AFK in the middle.
Agreed on no trading items and reducing the amount of typing as much as possible. If you're going with a portable shop, ideally all items would be purchasable from a quick shop type menu.
-
I do agree losing gold without your say is a bit odd.
I like the idea of just splitting the save gold.
Next Questions:
The stack farm! So let's say a stack is placed directly on top of another stack farm. Should there now be two stack farms? Or should the health of the first just double? If we choose double I think it benefits the Shepherds so they can theoretically kill two with one swing if they are strong enough.
Another gold question! Should Shepherds receive gold based on the damage they deal out, instead of on farm kill, or both? Sort of like Pillage from Wc3. I think granting gold per hit is more rewarding to the player and encourages cutting.
Also, should day/night cycle play any role?
Thoughts on trading/dropping items? I'm thinking it should just be buy/sell only.
And what about the portable shop features? -buy and such. Should I reduce the amount of typing commands as much as possible?
-
Dispersing gold on death automatically would be fine, but I don't like the idea of gold ever disappearing randomly because someone else used it or was saved... going for a hard farm/golem only to find out you don't have enough gold anymore would be pretty much the most frustrating way to die/miss a kill.
I'd suggest dispersing gold on death, then giving half the saving bonus to the saved sheep and half to the saving sheep.
You could also have separate gold pools, but make all gold generation even, so instead of giving the owner 10 gold every 4 seconds, saving farms would give all surviving sheep ~2 gold every 4 seconds and similar with killing farms/sheep for shepherds. That way everyone gets the same amount of gold, but no one can steal your share, and saving farms would even somewhat incentivize keeping other sheep alive/saving them. Would probably be a good idea to disable shepherd gold sharing with this system.
-
Thoughts on having Sheep gold be dispersed automatically upon death, and then re-dispersed when revived. Essentially doing the whole -g all thing for you on death, and pooling gold from the living on revive? If so how much gold? % based, just X amount, even split among total gold.
Also, should we just combine gold? For either Sheep team or the Shepherd team?
-
Noted thanks guys!
-
Mad brings up a very important point in my mind... slowing the game down.
100 % Agree
--> Currently the game is FAR to fast pace, which unlike people thought it would, created a game simply more based on luck, then skill itself.
There has been a few times I've played older versions of ReVo, and I found it was just that - slowed down, and you know what, I actually enjoyed it more that way. Problem was those maps were outdated and lacked all the newer commands and stuff we got.
I also think we should go back to 3 hit farms. Make sure the balancing scale is good for wolves where they don't get powerful to fast, but also aren't so slow to cut farms that the game gets boring as it goes on.
--> I also find that with two hit farms, it's basically become impossible to use skill to drag out a isolation as a sheep, with your mass collapsing basically instantly. I think it's ridiculous that even sheep as good as CMK can barely maintain in even a decent sized mass if 3-4 wolves are on him.
Thanks again ~
-
I think the icons would have to stay. Right click to move is obvious enough, but H for hold position probably wouldn't be, and attack is borderline as well. It would also feel like something was missing, for me at least, to not have an attack icon.
-
Hey Mad! Thanks for the input. I agree with basically all your answers lol. Do you think people need icons for Attack and Hold? Or just the ability to A-left click or press H.
I'd love to have a few map variants all sheep tag related, ex: CTF, and Bulldog. But they'll have to wait >< Sheep Tag first!
I have a feeling movespeed, and gameplay mechanics will be getting tweaked a lot. Initially I'd like to find that sweet spot that Sheep Tag originally had and go from there.
-
1. Should players be able to physically click build, and then farm?
2. Should button options for Attack/Move/Hold Position/Patrol be a thing?
3. Should patrol even be a thing?
4. Should shift building be allowed? Should it be instant?
5. Are we sticking to one set of build options? If so is there even a need for pressing B? Should just pressing F bring up a farm?
6. Should sheep be able to attack farms/save with a right click? Or should they require pressing A then left click. Or should they not be able to attack farms in general? Should all players farms be controlled as if it is a being shared as in they can destroy another sheeps farm by selecting it and press D.
1/5. I think it would be best to keep the build menu, unless you're removing at least a few farms, just to save hotkeys
2/3. I'd keep attack and hold position, probably drop move and patrol (or maybe make patrol only break if a sheep comes within range, for golems).
4. Definitely keep shift for shepherds, but I was very much not a fan of instant shift build in SC2 (it made massing feel less like a game and more like a chore, not to mention faster/easier), so I'd say drop it or keep it slow.
6. Save with right click, but stick with A+left click for farms... right clicking a farm is pretty common to walk to it/change pathing and it'd be annoying to have to stop an attack, and I'd have to TK so many people if I could select their farms and destroy with D.
I agree with sticking with sheep tag 2.
I think it would be interesting to slow the game (movement speed, maybe turn rate) down a bit, maybe like 10-15%. It would hopefully be enough to reduce some luck, like jumping out of farms and just running, hoping shepherds can't click your sheep in time, and mass speed, making positioning/thinking ahead a bit more important, while still keeping the game reasonably fast paced. I'd also like to see some sort of progression, or at least increased gold options, for sheep.
Anyway, I think the real question on everyone's mind is: when is CTF coming?
-
I don't think the models/units matter too much. In fact if you're intending others outside the STC to pick up the game I would actually advise staying away from the "sheep tag" theme. It doesn't sell well.
I think it could sell well calling it Sheep Tag 2. Like Legion TD 2 and Dota 2 did. Using a name people have already heard/seen will help it sell.
-
I think there should be match making modes
-2v4 last 6 minutes
-3v5 last 12 minutes
-5v5 last 20 minutes
And then the open lobby version for any mode you want, just like we have on wc3.
No we don't need patrol.
Hold position, attack, and move should be kept.
I think shift build should be another community vote... not sure about that one.
-
First beer got rid of iron golems, now he's going for all golems!!
jkjk
I don't think the models/units matter too much. In fact if you're intending others outside the STC to pick up the game I would actually advise staying away from the "sheep tag" theme. It doesn't sell well. Sounds like a kiddie game.
-
What NMCDO said. You can't just have features because you can. That is bad game design. You have to pick and choose especially for a competitive game. Take a look at how Wc3 ladder is, you can't just take out Hero Altars, and still play Ranked. At most they let you veto a couple maps, which may be an option to look into, but actually modifying game mechanics for a ranked match is a big no no in design. It divides the community into stack players and non-stack, it makes balancing the game near impossible, ruins the entire ladder/ranked system, and will ultimately never work. So this is most definitely not a choice, and it is a bad designers cop out to a problem they can't mechanically solve. This isn't an app with features we are making, it's a game :D
Also, NMCDO you're jumping ahead a bit much yet again^^ but I'll try to answer anyways.
A guide to introduce a few basic concepts to new players would be cool, giving them a insight on what professional ST can be like.
Tutorials will be provided on the important aspects and core concepts.
A larger map! Warcraft 3's players have been squinting at the map for far to long, it shouldn't have to be utterly painful to look at it all the time.
Are you talking about the minimap? If so yes, that will be scalable to the players choosing.
A hotkey you can press as sheep that identifies to your team your are going to be or are isolated!
This is cool I like it.
Have ranked and non ranked games - for ranked games have things like kills, time survived, and other stats recording to help create ranking / comparative values for players. OFC have Shepard's and Sheep stats be separated.
Yes, all of those things will hopefully happen.
Keep up the trend of having Shepard's and sheep named after players! Make it so individuals will want to contribute as much as they can, and potentially make it to the list. (Could be based of performance or / community contribution.)
I mean the Shepherds name will probably just be your username... Lol. I don't plan on having the HUD at the bottom.
Edit: Another thought, keep misses in the game! Misses will be sniping in Halo 3 for ST!
Misses are super awesome, and always make everyone die laughing when executed perfectly. I see no reason not to so long as it's done well.
Think about smaller design type questions! For instance should we stick to 5v5? What do you think is the max number of wolves vs sheep before either wolves or sheep insta win. How fast should gameplay be and what should the timer be? Most of your questions are feature related, let's knock out core mechanics and gameplay. How can we make the game more inviting to newer players.
Also, thoughts on what should be in the HUD?
Should players be able to physically click build, and then farm?
Should button options for Attack/Move/Hold Position/Patrol be a thing?
Should patrol even be a thing?
Should shift building be allowed? Should it be instant?
Are we sticking to one set of build options? If so is there even a need for pressing B? Should just pressing F bring up a farm?
Should sheep be able to attack farms/save with a right click? Or should they require pressing A then left click. Or should they not be able to attack farms in general? Should all players farms be controlled as if it is a being shared as in they can destroy another sheeps farm by selecting it and press D.
-
So when the game becomes larger, we can keep it consistant (gameplay) on all levels. As we all know, switching back and forth between stack and no stack takes time and adjustment...
-
Thanks for the quick responses, Beer.
A few random thoughts:
I believe for controversial topics like the stack farm you should add it to the game, have people try it out over a time, and have community votes
as to which direction the community would like.
Why not just have the ability to choose a mode, with or without stack farms?
-
Thanks for the quick responses, Beer.
A few random thoughts:
I believe for controversial topics like the stack farm you should add it to the game, have people try it out over a time, and have community votes
as to which direction the community would like.
A guide to introduce a few basic concepts to new players would be cool, giving them a insight on what professional ST can be like.
A larger map! Warcraft 3's players have been squinting at the map for far to long, it shouldn't have to be utterly painful to look at it all the time.
A hotkey you can press as sheep that identifies to your team your are going to be or are isolated!
Have ranked and non ranked games - for ranked games have things like kills, time survived, and other stats recording to help create ranking / comparative values for players. OFC have Shepard's and Sheep stats be separated.
Keep up the trend of having Shepard's and sheep named after players! Make it so individuals will want to contribute as much as they can, and potentially make it to the list. (Could be based of performance or / community contribution.)
Edit: Another thought, keep misses in the game! Misses will be sniping in Halo 3 for ST!
Just random thoughts~
-
These questions are jumping a bit ahead, but I will answer them to the best of my ability. Also, I like the enthusiasm!
What kind of ST physics are you going to keep? All of them?
Are you going to tamper with any of the physics? I.e. the distance of a mirror jump.
In a perfect world I would love to keep every Physics aspect the same, but that is just not going to happen. A LOT will act the same, but minor discrepancies might happen. Meaning maybe you have to stand closer to an edge for a jump to work, or build a farm at different position on-top the sheep to get that right angle. If you ever played some rounds of 'Sheep Tag Puzzle' where Physics were really pushed to their limits, you'll understand the minor details I'm talking about. However, the aspects of jumping and mirroring will still all apply! Also, when it's done people may find new physics things that were never in Sheep Tag, hopefully they will be minor, but yet still cool and will bring that feel of being a pioneer back! I do not plan on removing them unless they are seriously game breaking.
Are you going to keep things like redirect?
Yes, I think having an option for it will be good. But will remove it if community does not like it.
Are you going to make a new map?
I'm going to attempt to re-create the Wc3 terrain editor. The ultimate goal being a terrain editor where people can make any ST map they want upload it and play. So yes Revo terrain and any other terrains you can imagine will be possible! I'd like to have a set of "approved" terrains for competitive play as well, Revo will be one of them. Maybe community contests for new ones would be excellent way to handle which maps are approved. Revo will be the initial map in the game. Granted I cannot use the Warcraft 3 tiles, textures, etc. So the aesthetic of the map will look different.
Old demonstration of play: http://imgur.com/a/YnGjx
Sheep: (Pupils will be changed this is still a work in progress!)
(https://s24.postimg.org/91u907cyd/Sheep.png)
I'll upload more art assets as they come to the thread over here: http://sheeptag.createaforum.com/community-discussion/sheep-tag-remake-models/msg5989/?topicseen#new
Cheers!
-
A few important questions:
What kind of ST physics are you going to keep? All of them?
Are you going to tamper with any of the physics? I.e. the distance of a mirror jump.
Are you going to keep things like redirect?
Are you going to make a new map?
-
Thanks for the responses guys! They will be noted. As for the designs we do have to be careful not to be a look-alike as we all know Blizzard loves taking people down.
I'll continue with how I have it, and if it is too much of a change, then maybe I will pull back. NMCDO does bring a good point that Golems are in fact pretty damn magical.
I felt the Satyrs would fit well with the Centaur. As a Satyr is basically a centaur with 2 legs lol.
(https://image.ibb.co/bAODiv/download.jpg)
(http://orig05.deviantart.net/0e08/f/2016/047/0/5/14___satyr_watermark_by_jocarra-d9s09lw.jpg)
That was the type of creature I had in mind. I think they fit the "darker" theme quite nicely.
-
You should make it as they upgrade their damage (like claws in ST, but I assume this will be different) their cane will upgrade into more deadly weapons!
I'm not sure how I feel about a satyr instead of a golem, doesn't exactly seem like the right fit in my mind. I think it fits the magical precedent to have earth golems to summon, as the Shepards already use magic (mirror imaging).
The centaur could work, and sounds cool, but it would really depend on the design.
Also I feel like the game should have a darker scheme to it, I believe this would help people see past the simple premise of ST.
---> I think the destruction of farms should be violent and explosive, but not so much that it blocks the sheeps ability to see whats going on.
I'm 100 % up to test out the game, and tell you what I see / think.
Thanks Beer !
-
i think u should keep the current wolves to keep the game as original as possible and more recognizable. Just my opinion though, in regards to the wisps ye i agree with your idea. Like kyle I would love to test and show support.
-
Yee! I can come over again and test them out when everything is more concrete. I like the mythological feel to it.
Hopefully this turns into something and not another "could've been" Glitch 3D project. Keep it up!
Side note: Raiders were orcs riding wolves, not ogres.
-
Sheep Tag Standalone!
I'm working out some finer details on making an standalone Sheep Tag and was curious as to your input on how it should look!
Right now I'm leaning towards sticking with the Sheep vs Shepherd, but would like to change up some of the skins, while making sure it still feels like Sheep Tag. I want to give the game a more mythical twist.
For Sheep I plan on leaving them like a Sheep.
For Shepherd I was going to remove the "Raider" qualities, and actually make them a Shepherd. That means no Orcs* mounting a wolf and no sword. Instead it would be more of a Centaur Half-Human hybrid with a giant Shepherd Cane. Think more so like Keeper of the Grove minus the Night Elf traits.
For Golems/Iron Golems I like the idea of going with a 2-legged Satyr type creature. With a curved blade.
For Wisp I'm going to make it more 'Sheep Soul-ish' possibly a floating fat sheep or sheep in a bubble.
The main reasons for these decisions is that although raiders, wisps, and golems feel like they belong they really don't lol. The only reason it feels like they do is because it is on Warcraft 3. These changes although they seem drastic are really just aesthetically different.The Shepherd is still a quadruped, the Golems are still bipeds, and Wisps are still round. Which means everything should still interact as you'd expect.
If you guys have any ideas or input on this please let me know! Nothing is close to set in stone, and the main goal is to make a game the community will all enjoy!